Well my 400PDK project rifle has started. I will be using a banded front sight. Since they come untapered just curious how those are fitted to the barrel?

Had lunch with my old boss today so now there will be a new 375 & 400 version.

Many gunsmiths have made lathe fixtures that allow for the taper boring of barrel band fittings. You will find differing views on whether barrel band fittings should be silver soldered, glued, or just pressed on.

I can tell you a tale of a pressed on front sight.
The sling base was also pressed on. Both caused a constriction in a .45/70 barrel. The swivel band had a .001 constriction and the front sight cause a constrction of .0015. The rifle shot 18" groups or about 3 shots out of 5 on a Leupold sight in target with the 4 black squares.
The factory replaced the barrel free of charge.

I'm not a fan of pressed on either, but some people don't like my preference for silver soldered fittings.

The taper over the short distance is inconsequential for sweating on.

I used Brownells "hi-Force 44" and just soldered it and so far it's been solid and works well.

Use the recommended flux if you use that solder.

Don't think I would be a pressed on fan. Is there enough stress to require Silver solder vs a lower temp? I used a lead solder to attach a rib to the top of a Model 10 about 30 years ago. Last time I saw it 15 years later it was still going strong.

I was think a NECG sight a swivel band. Any other suggestions?

Vapodog since we were typing at the same time is hiforce 44 a soft solder?

My NECG was pressed on the first time. After it fell off it was then fitted with a locking screw.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Well my 400PDK project rifle has started. I will be using a banded front sight. Since they come untapered just curious how those are fitted to the barrel?

ramrod,

I'm also putting a rifle together that will have a banded front sight as well as barrel band sling swivel. In the Silver Lining Rifle thread there was mentioned the use of Loctite product #'s 380, 609, and 271. I plan on rust bluing this rifle and I'm thinkin' I just might try some Loctite, just haven't decided which one to use yet.

To answer the original question of fitting to the barrel, there are a few ways you can do it. Mr. Wiebe showed us how he does it in the Searcy Rifle thread. This i salso how I do it now. I used to grind it to fit with a dremel and stones and the sanding drum. THis works fine and there is nothing wrong with doing it like this. Just grind the band until you get it to perfectly match the taper of the barrel. You also have to work on the ramp to get it to fit with no gaps.

Now I put the ramp in the lathe in my 3 jaw with the ramp pointing towards the tailstock. I then bore the band out a little smaller diameter than where I want it to wind up on the barrel.

I slide it on the barrel as far as possible and then hammer all around the band to swage it to fit the barrel. I use a small brass hammer with a highly polished face. I poured a cylinder of lead that weighs about 35# and I set that on top of my anvil. I rest the barrel on the "lead anvile" and hammer with the highly polished brass mallet. As the band swages to shape, it travels up the barrel towards the reciever.

When the band is about where you want it, you need to work on the bottom of the ramp to get it to fit. I use a dremel with a stone for that. A sanding drum in the dremel works about as well. I use scrapers on some points to just remove a skosh of metal when needed. Depending on how close the band is to barrel diameter, you may have to work on the ramp, then swage some more, then work on the ramp again.

I have always attached them with Hi-Force 44 and Comet flux. But the last one I did I used Loctite's Black Max. This stuff sets up INCREDIBLY fast when you have a very small gap. WHen a banded front sight is fit correctly, then there is a very small gap. So you better have some good witness marks and be ready to work FAST! I will admit to being pretty old fashioned and conservative about a lot of things. I was leery of using Black Max until My buddy told me he started using it. He also told me the names of some other guys he talked to who were using it with good results. If it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me. I tend to get solder on everything and the Black Max makes clean up a snap. But I would not use it just because it is easier to use. I would only use it after the endorsements and then me testing it.

The Hi-Force 44 is called "silver solder," but it is not to be confused with true "silver braze" that almost everyone calls silver solder. The HF 44 solder has soem silver ocntent in it, making it stronger than lead/tin solder, but it is a lower amount and the melting point and strength of HF 44 is lower than silver braze. It is great stuff.

I always drill a little dimple in the barrel for the set screw that is in the NECG ramp.

BTW-I recently bought some Loctite 271 after seein g Mr. Wiebe use it on the Searcy rifle. I am going to try it on my next band job.

Oh, one more thing. I have some small C clamps I use for barrel work. I welded short pieces of small angle iron on the body of the clamp, and welded a piece of steel on the end of the screw portion of the clamp. I glued a piece of 9/10 oz leather on the new screw "head." When soldering or glusing, I put the angle iron vee block on the bottom of th ebarrel and screw the clamp down tight. The leather keeps from marring the ramp, as they are very soft metal. I have always guessed they are made of 12L14 or soemthing similar. I use these for working on quarter ribs, island bases, banded ramps whatever. This clamp is used on th eramp to ensure that there are no gaps as eveyrthing sets up.

Hope this was not too confusing!!!

I just put one on a stainless barrel last week using Duane Wiebe's method of Loctite 271. Started by measuring the barrel every inch for the length of the sight to get an average taper. Then, set the lathe compound at the same taper from center line minus .001" at the ramp-fat side of the barrel. This helps hold the ramp down. stuck the banded hooded sight in a three jaw with the ramp sticking out like, well you know. Then bored it a thou under size measuring with snap gauges and a micrometer and peened it like in the "Silver Lining Rifle thread" for the last 1/8". Painted it inside with loctite 271 and smacked it on. I used the "bones" to line it up with the square bridge as good as I could. Then used my cross test level to get it spot on. This is the first one I've done with loctite. The stainless barrel doesn't solder so well so I figured if loctite is good enough for one of the top gunmakers around then it should work for me as well! Pretty slick way to stick it on. Thanks for the tip Mr Wiebe.

quote:

Hope this was not too confusing!!!

Marc I don't know what is says about the both of us but it made sense to me. Might not if I tried to put it in action.

I'll look for Mr Weibe's thread. Don't know why I didn't connect to the scholarship rifle.

THis was my first time with the ramp pointing out as well. I had my tool polished the a very shapr edge and took very light cuts. This was the lease I have had to grind the underside of the ramp to get it to match the barrel contour.

Before final attachment, I leveld the barreled action in the vise by using a level on top of the quarter rib. I then slid the band on and leveled it with the level. Next I laid a piece of tape along each side of the ramp and marked the barrel with a fine Sharpie. I used these marks to keep the band aligned and level when gluing it on. Black Max sets up quickly, so you better get it ligned up quickly. Hopefully the 271 will give me a little more cure time.

quote:

Black Max sets up quickly, so you better get it ligned up quickly.

Hey I was just on their web site. They say you have 60-120 seconds. So what is the problem? Heck my hands and brain take more time than that to talk to each other. That 271's 20-30 minutes is more my pace.

After shortening the barrels on my CZ 550's in 416 Rigby and 458 WM I attached the NEC banded front sights with an adhesive that comes in a squeeze tube called "Goop", available in most any hardware store. Works great, easy to use, cleans up with mineral spirits. Once this stuff sets the sights are rock solid. I have put many rounds through both rifles with no problems at all.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
That 271's 20-30 minutes is more my pace.

Don't think you'll get that much working time out of the loctite. When I got my cross test level out and started whacking the sight again it was pretty hard to get it to move that last little bit.

quote:

Don't think you'll get that much working time out of the loctite

Oops wrong graph. More like 25% set up on normal threads in 5-10 minutes. I can see how a tighter area would be quicker that a normal thread since it cures from absence of air.

I think this old man might stay with solder. It can be removed.

Paul,
A good heat gun or propane torch should be enough to release the Locktite, should you need to. Just remember to wear good gloves when pulling the band back off.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Well my 400PDK project rifle has started. I will be using a banded front sight. Since they come untapered just curious how those are fitted to the barrel?

Had lunch with my old boss today so now there will be a new 375 & 400 version.

I clamp the sight in the chuck, determine the amount of taper I need, swing the compound to the required setting and cut the taper by advancing the compound using a small "Circle" brand carbide boring bar.

I temporarily push the sight into position setting it square, I wrap a piece of masking tape around the barrel at the tail of the ramp and place a small witness mark on the ramp and the tape. I take a butt section of an old gun barrel and bore it out just slightly larger than the barrel I am fitting the sight to, and use it to drive the sight on to the barrel, being careful to aligning the witness marks.

If you are using Loc-tite, then degrease evrything and apply it before the final drive. Duh! If you are quick, you can make any final adjustments before the stuff starts to set. I think 609 might be better for cylindrical parts than 271, but if all you have is 271, go for it.

Stories of swaging barrel band fittings in situ make me a little nervous. Fixtures can be made to taper bore the fittings to a light tight fit that is ideal for silver soldering. This is a method that several ACGG members have shown me.

quote:

Originally posted by Chisana:
Stories of swaging barrel band fittings in situ make me a little nervous. Fixtures can be made to taper bore the fittings to a light tight fit that is ideal for silver soldering. This is a method that several ACGG members have shown me.

I agree that turning a solid tapered mandrel with the same taper and gauge diameter of the barrel would be a less risky starting point. fit the band to the mandrel then transfer to the barrel.

there is nothing to be worried about with swaging. It sure did make ME nervouse when I first tried it. My buddy got me to agree to try it, and then I chickened out and did it the old way. But on the next one I tried it-and screwed up the band! So i ordered a new one and swaged it correctly and it fit just like rooster boots. BTW-he is in the Guild and other Guild memebers told me to stop being a hard head and try it. It is really fast.

As I mentioned in my first post, there are several ways to skin this cat. As long as you wind up with no gaps around the band or ramp, then one method is as good as the other.

I storngly urge everyone wantin to do metal to try several of the methods to fit banded sights an banded swivels. Try all of these methods mentioned here, or come up with a new idea on your own. If you hit a snag, ask questions here. However you do it, strive fo r aperfect fit with no gaps. If you are unsure how your job looks, then post pics here an dask for honest and constructive feedback. This is a metal job you can do with just a dremel for a power tool if need be, so it is perfect for a shadetree gunsmith who wants to learn more. But please work on the band and ramp until there are no gaps-push yourself to do it better.

As mentioned in my first post, Black Max sets up incredible fats with a small gap. I guess i should have mentioend that as the gap gets larger, the set up time increases. Bands need to fit with zero visible gaps on the edges where it contacts the barrel. A propane torch will break th ebond. If you let the Black Max set up for a day, it will take A LOT of heat to break it free. But if you apply heat soon after set up, then it still takes a good bit of heat, but noticably less.

If the various loctites can be removed with a torch will they hold up to hot blueing? Or is the sight installed afterwards.

Black Max will take hot bluing. i don't hot blue but my buddy does. He has never had a problem. As stated above, if you let Black Max sit up for a day it takes A LOT of heat to break it free. I had a quarter rib glued on for profiling and I did not think I was going to be able to get it off. I finally did, but took more heat than it would have needed for Hi Force 44 solder. I was really panicing because I had beacoup in the rib and I did not know if I would be able to get it off

You can install bands after hot bluing with the Black Max if you like, but soldered bands must be installed before bluing

Thanks guys for all the info. For the first 24 of the last 30 years I had a smith that would allow me to use his tool and provide help in exchange for GRUNT work and minor repairs for him. His passing 6 years ago left a big hole.

Have a great weekend.

Let me hyjack my own thread. In looking at the NECG sight I see two banded front sights. The Masterpiece and the Universal. Could someone simply expain the difference and suggest a choice?