Hi
Just wanted to know.
Hand lapping or fire lapping dose it work ?
And which is better to do .Hand lapping or fire lapping and will i get more accuracy?
Thank You
Idaho Bob

Bullseye44--

I'm getting the impression that you may have the wrong idea about what it takes to make an accurate rifle. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Any lapping in the LAST thing you might try before throwing the barrel away and putting on a new one...not the first. Lapping a barrel has a 90% chance of screwing it up beyond redemption.

There are a BUNCH of books and articles on accuracy and what can be done to attain it, from bench technique to re-building. There's no guarantee your factory rifle will EVER shoot one hole groups without rebuilding the action, replacing the barrel. re-bedding the stock, precision reloading, and learning to shoot from a bench.......which includes reading wind, mirage, multi-lever trigger control, and aiming with high powered scopes.

For your first book I'd strongly suggest "The Accurate Rifle" by Warren Page.

I agree with Jack, there are a myriad of things that need to be done before fire lapping the barrel and this should be your last resort before tossing the barrel in the garbage.

That being said, I fire lapped my 338 Lapua with the Tubbs Final Finish Bore Kit, and it cut my groups in half. I went from 1 3/4 - 2 inch groups to .75 - 1 inch groups. I would HIGHLY discourage doing this to a rifle that shot MOA or less. But I was going to rebarrel the rifle anyway and wanted to try the kit. The rifle was a Sako TRG-S.

Now realize this is one example in one rifle and I may have gotten lucky, but it did work. As Jack said, do this as the last step before rebarreling and plan on spending the money to rebarrel anyway.

Just my opinion FWIW.

Jim

I took a brand new, out of the box rifle and fire lapped it with David Tubbs Final Finish kit. The gun is a Savage in .300 RUM and fires .6" groups!!! After speaking with David, he advised that I fire lap before shooting the gun, so that I would not be fighting fowling or rolling over any burrs that there might have been. It made some sense to me, so I followed his procedure. Did the gun shoot that well before I fire lapped it, I guess I'll never know, but I doubt it. Fire lapping, if done properly is the equivalent to hand lapping , which you'll pay extra for from most barrel makers.

bowhuntr

Of the two, fire lapping is by far the most destructive thing you can do to a barrel. You will push the throat forward and you will hone down the lands. Sure you will get a smooth bore, but at what cost to the life of the barrel?

I have never spoken directly with Tubbs as to why he would suggest taking a new, completely unknown bore, and subject it to something as abrasive as fire lapping. I guess when you have barrel makers standing in line to hand you a new bore, screwing up a new barrel is no big deal. And I guess there is always the commercial side of recommending something with your name on it, not that David would stoop to such a level.

In any event, shooting bullets down the barrel does a pretty good job of lapping in my opinion. If you have a really rough bore you might consider a few applications of JB Bore Paste and a hundred or so rounds. Works on every other rifle that I have seen...

Bowhuntrrl...In all respect to your post... the reason David Tubb does not want you to shoot your rifle first... is that he is afraid you wont need his product. Silicon Carbide will/does not have ANY problems fighting fouling/rolled over burrs, or even hardened tool steel!! You even said it yourself "Did the gun shoot that well before I fire lapped it, I guess I'll never know...

I've done both for various reasons under various circumstances. Given a choice, if I feel it's the next logical step, I prefer hand-lapping over fire-lapping. I'll get enough throat erosion in time, thank you very much. I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally don't need to accelerate the process.

Now... I just got in a Shilen for my .338 RUM that's in the works. I'm usually a Douglas man, but I had my reasons for getting a Shilen this time. Frankly... it's rougher in the bore than any Douglas I've ever used. However... I've seen Shilen barrels shoot, regardless of what their bores looked like. You just CANNOT judge how well a barrel will shoot by looking down its bore. For an example, take Savages. I have several, love them, won't part with them for love nor money... but they aren't exactly notorious for having silky-smooth bores. Still, they SHOOT.

So... my Shilen barrel is a bit rougher than any Douglas I've used. Big deal. I'm not having it touched, with regard to lapping, AT ALL.

I also have to agree with the previous comment. Meaning no disrespect to Mr. Tubb (I respect his accomplishments), the abrasives on those bullets would EASILY remove any leftover fouling that you didn't get out from using a good copper-removing solvent like Barnes CR-10. If you'd have shot your Savage to begin with... well, quite honestly, I think you'd have been impressed. If you put in much time around Savages, you'll learn very quickly that the suckers shoot.

Russ

Bowhuntrrl,

Savage bbls are some of the most accurate out of the box bbls there are in a factory rifle. My guess is that you would have caused more premature wear than gained accuracy.
I also like JBs paste and it may the least abrasive form of lapping, but even that is about number 7 of ten on my list of things to help with accuracy.

I don't know which is more controlversial...muzzle brakes or fire-lapping!
I've used both the NECO & Tubbs lapping bullets on barrels and both did what they were supposed to do.

I used the NECO bullets on a factory 350 RemMag barrel (Rem 700 Classic) that while it shot well, was a terrible fouler and plater of copper...in fact Barnes bullets plated so much copper that after 10 shots pressure signs showed up and it would take me several evenings using Sweets to clear the bore. After I fire-lapped it the barrel was much "smooter" feeling when I cleaned it and it cleaned quite a bit easier...Barnes bullets still plated copper but not nearly as bad. Accuracy was slightly improved but not enough to mention. The process did move the throat forward a bit but since I couldn't seat the bullets out very far before I fire-lapped it, it didn't seem to make any difference. The additional ease of cleaning was very, very worthwhile.

The barrel I used the Tubbs system on a new .30 barrel (an experimental gain-twist by a well-known premium maker) that the maker suggested I use the Tubbs system on ...but only the 3 or 4 finer grits.....I fired a few rounds before to get some fire-formed cases to have custom dies made and the barrel seemed very, very smooth...about what you would expect of a premium barrel. After using the Tubbs bullets, the barrel was even smoother than before and cleaning it has been a relative breeze. Accuracy has been all I could hope for and measurements, before and after, show only a very, very small movement of the throat. I'm very happy and would not hesitate to use the Tubbs bullets on another barrel.

One thing to consider! If you read the Tubbs literature AND take a look at the Krieger barrel web-site you will see they both talk about the fact that it isn't really the barrel roughness when you talk about premium barrels, it is what happens when the chamber is cut....making lateral roughness and it is this lateral roughness you smooth out when you break in a barrel....Tubbs bullets make this happen sooner (using the finer grades) and can save a lot of back-and-forth with the cleaning rod is you use the shoot one and clean method of conditioning a barrel.

I�ve had the same experience as others here with fire lapping. I bought a kit from Norma, I think it is a NECO kit, to "fix" my old 6,5x55. The reason I tried this was that I could not get 120 gr Barnes X bullets to shoot, and I really, really wanted them to! I got 3000fps with these bullets, but the fouling was so bad that, even though the first two or three shots didn�t show any excess pressure, after about ten shots the primers started falling out of the cases... After fire lapping I got a much deeper throat, I could no longer seat any bullet all the way out to the lands. Velocities dropped for all my loads by 50-70 fps. Accuracy was still good, fouling slightly better but the barrel still wouldn�t shoot the X bullets. I kept the rifle for five years and shot a lot of game with it, but I always regretted the fire lapping. I think it really is a last measure, something to try with a barrel that would otherwise be scrapped.
Tron