Whenever someone asks if "my grandfathers old damascus barreled shotgun" is safe to shoot, the standard reply is for someone to say "Have it checked out by a 'competant gunsmith'". This is good advise, however...

Specifically (with contact info), who is a 'Qualified Gunsmith' that can check my 'London Fine Damascus' & 'Laminated Steel' shotgun barrels to determine shootability?
What process do they use?
What is a price range for the services?

Thanks,
BMG

I'd suggest you start with a recent (past 1 - 2 years) article from the Double Gun Journal - if my stuff wasn't all packed, I'd copy and send it to you. They had some scientific pressure data from light shotgun loads (smokeless) compared to black powder loads, and the general concensus was that not only was overall pressure lower, but the early pressure peak was lower (IIRC - verify for yourself). In other words, for light smokeless loads, a Damascus barrel in good shape would do fine.

As far as the integrity of Damascus, I have read a bit about it - due to it's composition, it can have solid metal in one of the "strands" and heavily oxidized metal in the next strand. So in that respect, a look by a pro may be worthwile. I'm not sure I would opt for overcharge proofing in a nice old gun - I always kind of wondered about the logic of that for routine use in new guns.

Todd

I hate to even get into this subject, as there are so many strongly held, not necessarily factual, but very fervantly believed opinions out there about it.



As you no doubt have read, damascus and/or twist barrels are made essentially by hammer welding strips of metal together around a mandrel, then reaming/polishing the finished tube(s). In double-barreled guns, two such tubes are then joined together either by mechanical fitting, soldering, or both.



Sometimes, with a highly skilled artisan and some good luck, the welds are "good" and "sound" all the way around the mandrel, for the tube's entire length. Sometimes not. The "not" was intended to be discovered by the proofing process, where it was hoped the faulty barrels would fail.



Sometimes that happened, sometimes it didn't. The problem therein is that metal and hammer welds also fail by repeated application of stress, so a "weak" or "slightly imperfect" weld may last a few shots, several shots, many shots, or almost forever before it fails.



The failure itself may be relatively minor, depending where along the barrel it occurs, or it may be catastrophic.



Another potential problem is the presence of "non-metallic inculsions" and/or minute "gaps" in the welds. Inclusions do not bond strongly with the metal of the barrels and are sites of incipient weakness in the welds. The gaps are locations where moisture may enter directly or by capillary action and cause oxidation (rust). Over time, oxidation may destroy the integrity of the welds and the barrels themselves. Unfortunately, the rust often cannot be detected by even the most close visual examination by even the most skilled gunsmith. That does NOT mean it is not there!



As a result, shooting damascus or twist barrel guns is a lottery, regardless what pressures or cartridges are used. In this lottery, if one's number comes up, he loses!



The barrels may be flawless and may last many lifetimes when fired with low pressure cartridges.



They may also have serious hidden flaws caused by the cumulative stress of numerous firings and the presence of incomplete welds at the sites of tiny non-metallic inclusions. In addition, there may be serious weakening due to hidden rust.



One can never tell, and therefore one never knows from one shot to the next, whether this coming shot will be the one that destroys the gun and/or part of the shooter or bystanders.



It is a risk I personally do not flirt with, but many do, most of the time successfully. But it only takes ONE catastrophic failure.



Each man has to reckon his own risk, and his own willingness to take the entire possible ramifications of that risk.



Usually, ,the reference to having the gun looked at by a competent gunmsith is a polite way of saying, "Well, I wouldn't do it, but I doubt I can talk you out of it...maybe this guy can...."



There is so much emotion involved in this issue, and so much in the way of historical assumption that because it worked for old Joe, (or Grandpa), or even for the speaker up 'til now, that it will continue to be safe into the indefinite future.



Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but one pretty well has to weigh those possibilites for himself. Virtually no one can do it for him.



AC

You may have better luck asking your question over at�.
http://gunshop.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=1
Any number of people can point you to a gunsmith that understands damascus. There will be a lot less �hidden rust� and other old tails that seem to hang on forever. If you are at all nervous about shooting damascus you could have the gun reproved for smokeless in England.

Alberta Canuck
I couldn't agree more.
There are 2 old family damascus barreled shotguns I would love to use again,but won't.
There used to be three, but the left barrel ruptured about 6" from the breech.
This was an LC Smith 12 ga that looked to be in fine shape and had been owned since new by my great grandfather.
No injuries but 3 sets of soiled underwear.
The oldest shotgun I shoot now is a 1935 Browning A5 (obviously not Damascus) and it only gets fed dove loads.
Excellent points about assuming risk. Shoot it if you got to,but don't cry if it doesn't stay together.
JMO

Covey16

I wonder if any nondestructive testing methods like X-ray, ultrasound, Magnafluxing... would be useful?

BMG,
Those old shotguns were fired with "blue pills", proof loads when they were made and the London gun houses will still do that to determine the integrity of a gun.

I can not see how any gunsmith could look over an old shotgun and pronounce it fit for service without firing proof loads in it also. I would imagine that if you attached strain guages all along the barrel and fired with a lesser load you could tell but I would think that would end up being much more expensive. The downside is that proof loads may blow up your gun.

A gunsmith, competant or otherwise, can only give you an opinion as to whether or not your damascus gun is safe to shoot.

You stated that your gun has 'London Fine Damascus' & 'Laminated Steel' barrels. IMO, that doesn't mean as much as the maker of the gun. If it's a reputable maker there's greater likelihood that they were high quality barrels to start with and the smith can give you his opinion as to whether he thinks they are still in good conditon.

They only way to be reasonably sure they are still safe to shoot is to send them back to the one of the two UK proof houses for reproof. Then you'll be sure that you are starting out with a safe gun that should remain safe as long as it's taken care of and only used with the proper low pressure ammo.

The cost of having a gun reproved can run around up to $1000 depending on work needed to prepare for reproof, and getting it back and forth to the UK. Therefore it is usually done on higher priced guns or guns with sentimental value. They will proof any gun that is in good condition, not just British guns.

Rob

Like 2mp said go to BBS forum or Shooting Soortsman forum and ask . There are several guys there that shoot them and can refure you to the right gunsmiths

Alberta Canuck is right.First there is real damascus ,then there is fake damascus( etched to look like the real thing).If it's the real thing ,how good is it ? As a metallurgist I can tell you that inclusions and poor welds( cold shut)are in effect cracks and can propagate with the firing stresses over time. [the large number and size of the inclsions in the hull of the Titanic are part of the reason it sank] Nondestructive testing should be able to detect some of the problems. Proofing would add more assurance btu in any case treat old guns very gently.

Couldn't you just get a set of subgauge tubes, such as Briley etc.. That does mean you have to go down a gauge or two but I would have thought that would be the safest way to shoot them.

>>>>>>>Alberta Canuck is right. First there is real damascus ,then there is fake damascus( etched to look like the real thing).<<<<<<<<
This was done on a very small amount of cheap imports and almost never encountered. This is a widely held belief because many dealers tell customers �Oh don�t worry is just a fake pattern on steel barrels.

Hidden flaws in damascus barrels is the old horror story to scare children. At one time you could knock the price down on a gun if it had damascus barrels. Go to a few English gun sites on the web and you will see shotgun after shotgun with damascus barrels nitro proved and damm expensive.

As I said earlier if you want answers to the damascus question best go to where the people are who understand them.

BMG,
Seeing your address, at least one very good answer for you is Muzzleloaders Etc. Jim Westerman or Westerberg, the owner, deals only in old guns and rifles, and is a master smith. I have had him check out a few for me. Exit #98 or 96 off of 35E, go east to the first light (1 blk) turn south in front of the old Gander Mt. store (may now be closed) and you will see it on the east side of the street in a very small strip mall along with a locksmith/safe dealer and a few other things.

If you have trouble finding him, let me know. I'll look up better directions.

Brent - in Iowa

Yes but it would ruin the balance of an otherwise perfect shotgun.