My Mom bought me two rifles as gifts (great Mom!!). She lives in Texas and I in Wisconsin. Even though I'm not prohibited from purchasing/owning, my understanding of the transfer rules is that because I'm not from the same state as the transferer, the transfer must go through an FFL in my home state. We'll have a to ship them to an FFL in WI who will run the transfer paperwork. Is this a correct interpretation?

We are visiting in a few weeks and I had planned on just taking possession and bringing them home, but after looking into it deeper it seems that may not be copacetic.

Do you mean your mother is going to LOAN you those rifles?


Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

It's a gift. Unless your State requires that you register them through a dealer, she can simply give them to you as gifts while you are home and you can take them back with you. At that point they're considered yours. I gave my Army son a 1911 and he took it back home with him. Better hurry though while this is still the land of the free.

Thanks for the replies. I think if we lived in the same state (either TX or WI) a face to face transfer would not require an FFL. Some other states would still require a formal transfer. But I've finally heard from the FFL I use and he confirmed that because it is interstate, they need to be received by an FFL on my end and paperwork completed. That may be a specific WI requirement, but either way I trust his interpretation. A bit more of a PITA to ship but he's offered to do the transfer at no charge so that will save some.

Your FFL is correct,,gift or not,it's an interstate transfer and to be done legally it must go thru an FFL in your State.

Upon your visit to your Mom in her State of residence, she can legally 'loan' you a firearm for temporary use by you while you are in that State.
But you cannot remove it from that State w/o it being an interstate transfer.

IIRC as it is right now,,the only way a firearm can be transfered interstate legally without going through the FFL transfer is by bequeath.

All this of course subject to any State laws that might get in the way.

..and what people do w/o telling anyone else is their business,,but that's the FFL/GCA'68 side of it as I've always understood it.
I don't recall any exemption for gifts,or gifts between family members not being subject to the requirements of an FFL being used in an interstate transfer between non-licensees.

The last post is correct. I just read a "ATF top ten FFL questions" FAQ and it covered this. You have to go through an FFL.

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:
The last post is correct. I just read a "ATF top ten FFL questions" FAQ and it covered this. You have to go through an FFL.

Post a link to the ATF site where this "gift" is subject to an interstate transfer. The guy is going home, mom can simply give him the gun as a gift. Provided there isn't anything that would prevent him from owning a gun, he can take it with him. No transfer needed.

I just looked through the ATF's FAQ on Unlicensed Persons. There are no answers that even address gifts of firearms. As long as Wisconsin law does not prohibit you from entering the state with the guns, there is no problem; it's a bonified gift...at least for now.

Just a question. How many of us live in states where we have to stop and legally declare EVERYTHING we are taking with us in our personal vehicle when traveling out of said state and official from said state visibly/physically inventories everything in your vehicle?

I know our country has gone overboard on firearms laws, but with the exception of my two trips to Canada, I have NEVER been stopped at ANY state line and had my vehicle searched or been required to register or "claim' any of the firearms that were in my possession.

I may have missed something somewhere, but which states require a resident of that state to automatically register any and all firearms they own, regardless of where they came from.

I can see being a law abiding citizen, but unless a person has to stop when leaving their home state and declare the guns they are taking with them and then has to stop upon their return and prove that the declared guns are still in their possession.

Is there any state that requires a gun owner to register ALL of the guns in their possession with some state agency?

Unless there are border crossing checks that I have somehow missed, if the man is driving to Texas in his personal vehicle and picks up two guns from his Mother, how can anyone prove that they were not his guns and his Mother had simply been keeping them for him?

I would go with the FFL. Here is why:

quote:

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

The operative words there are "or otherwise acquire" which would be a gift, and "at a licensee's premise". Just go through the FFL in Texas. We are not talking about what is commonly done, but what is legal.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
Post a link to the ATF site where this "gift" is subject to an interstate transfer. The guy is going home, mom can simply give him the gun as a gift. Provided there isn't anything that would prevent him from owning a gun, he can take it with him. No transfer needed.

You will not find the word 'gift',or 'present', 'trade', 'he gave it to me'...
It's all simply called the Interstate Transfer of a Firearm.
It doesn't matter if it's between Mom and Son,,Dad and Mom,,You and Me or whoever. It covers all persons regardless of wether they are related or not and regardless of the details ($$)of the exchange.

If neither of the persons involved in the transfer have an FFL,,then the interstate (the parties involved legally reside in different States) transfer (sale, gift, trade, ect) must be done thru an FFL.
If it's a handgun, the transfer must be done in the State of residence of the party receiving the firearm.

No one will search your car and ask for papers at the State border (yet). No one will most likely ever demand to know where you got that shotgun sitting in the corner,,unless it's used in a crime.
Some States register certain firearms, some not. That's not the issue. State laws always have to be considered when making such a transfer.
It's just the way it is

It's the way the Fed Law has been since Dec 1968, ammended 1986.

quote:

Originally posted by 2152hq:

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
Post a link to the ATF site where this "gift" is subject to an interstate transfer. The guy is going home, mom can simply give him the gun as a gift. Provided there isn't anything that would prevent him from owning a gun, he can take it with him. No transfer needed.

You will not find the word 'gift',or 'present', 'trade', 'he gave it to me'...
It's all simply called the Interstate Transfer of a Firearm.
It doesn't matter if it's between Mom and Son,,Dad and Mom,,You and Me or whoever. It covers all persons regardless of wether they are related or not and regardless of the details ($$)of the exchange.

If neither of the persons involved in the transfer have an FFL,,then the interstate (the parties involved legally reside in different States) transfer (sale, gift, trade, ect) must be done thru an FFL.
If it's a handgun, the transfer must be done in the State of residence of the party receiving the firearm.

No one will search your car and ask for papers at the State border (yet). No one will most likely ever demand to know where you got that shotgun sitting in the corner,,unless it's used in a crime.
Some States register certain firearms, some not. That's not the issue. State laws always have to be considered when making such a transfer.
It's just the way it is

It's the way the Fed Law has been since Dec 1968, ammended 1986.

Try to pay attention here: If his mom gives him a gun, and they are in the same state, while visiting, then it isn't INTERSTATE! It only becomes an interstae transaction if she SENDS him the firearm from a different state. You as an American, can GIVE anyone a firearm, and provided the recipient is not prevented from owning said firearm, can take possession of the firearm and take it home with them without ever involving an FFL! He can come home to visit his mother and take possession of the firearm, and then mail it to himself at his address if he dersires. Yes, you can mail a firearm to yourself; you just can MAIL one to another person without involving an FFL.

quote:

Try to pay attention here: If his mom gives him a gun, and they are in the same state, while visiting, then it isn't INTERSTATE! It only becomes an interstae transaction if she SENDS him the firearm from a different state. You as an American, can GIVE anyone a firearm, and provided the recipient is not prevented from owning said firearm, can take possession of the firearm and take it home with them without ever involving an FFL! He can come home to visit his mother and take possession of the firearm, and then mail it to himself at his address if he dersires. Yes, you can mail a firearm to yourself; you just can MAIL one to another person without involving an FFL.

What is everyone finding so hard to understand here. Again, how many people have to stop at the state line of the state they live in and declare the firearms they have in their possession?

Someone PLEASE answer that one question. Have ANY of you heard of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell Concerning Gays In The Military"????????????

I know for a FACT, that I can cross state lines in America and have NEVER been stopped or asked if I was carrying a firearm of any kind and whether I owned it or not.

The ONLY time that I have faced that type situation was going into Canada. Last time I looked, Canada was not/is not an American State.

Unless this person is having the firearms in question, shipped to him, he does not have to go thru an FFL dealer. If he is driving to Texas and picking up the guns at his Mother's house, he does not have to do anything in regards to registering these guns.

Paranoia is becoming a little to rampant in this country.

Crazy, here are a couple examples from having been a resident in both of these states. some details may have changed, but as far as i know: New York State, for many years now, has prohibited anyone from entering the state, by any means, from transporting a handgun into the state unless you posses a valid New York State "pistol pemit", and even then you are required to stop at the closest State Police barracks to have the make, model and serial number added to your permit. If you cross into the State of Massachusetts with ANY firearm and you do not have a Massachusetts Firearms Identification card, you are subject to a mandatory 1-year prison sentence. So, they haven't started searching all vehicles crossing their borders, yet, but nonetheless you are breaking the law if you don't first comply with their state laws.

Oh, also having lived in Hawaii, I had to take all me firearms to the Honolulu Police Headquarters so they could record all make, model and serial numbers-register--all my guns. But I didn't drive to Hawaii.

Okay, no mention was made whether or not the guns in question were hand guns or long guns, and even though it is ancient history, in 1996 I drove across New York state twice and No One stopped me and asked if I had any guns in my pick up.

quote:

So, they haven't started searching all vehicles crossing their borders, yet, but nonetheless you are breaking the law if you don't first comply with their state laws.

No, you are only breaking state laws if you are a RESIDENT of that state. Non-Residents traveling thru a state, are not subject to the same laws as the residents of the state.

That only applies going into Canada or Mexico.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

Try to pay attention here: If his mom gives him a gun, and they are in the same state, while visiting, then it isn't INTERSTATE! It only becomes an interstae transaction if she SENDS him the firearm from a different state. You as an American, can GIVE anyone a firearm, and provided the recipient is not prevented from owning said firearm, can take possession of the firearm and take it home with them without ever involving an FFL! He can come home to visit his mother and take possession of the firearm, and then mail it to himself at his address if he dersires. Yes, you can mail a firearm to yourself; you just can MAIL one to another person without involving an FFL.

Yes it is an interstate transfer of a firearm because the two people involved are legal residents of two different States.
It doesn't matter if Son goes and picks it up in Moms State,,or Mom delivers it to Son in Son's State.
It doesn't matter where the plot of ground is located when one hands the other the firearm.
Gift has nothing to do with it,,,Family has nothing to do with it.
The firearm is changing ownership (transfering ownership) between persons who legally reside in two different States.
The Legal state of residence of the persons making the firearms transfer,,,,,That is what is in play.


..and yes you can send a firearm to yourself to an out of State location, go there and pick it up at the hunting camp or where ever you addressed it to when you arrive, use it,,and then send it back to yourself.
All perfectly legal with NO FFL needed because.....there is NO TRANSFER of OWNERSHIP of the firearm..
But you must have had legal possession of the firearm before you sent it to yourself.
Going to visit Mom in another State and having her hand it to you is not gaining legal possession of it.
If you shipped a gun you legally own from your own State of residence to Mom's place in another state to use while there,,then shipped it back to yourself to avoid driving or flying with it,,that's legal.

You as an American CAN give a firearm to another citizen that is not legally prevented from owning one (felon, ect).
BUT, the transfer must go thru an FFL,,,IF the receiving party is a resident of another State,,according to the GCA.


If 'GIFT' was a listed reason anywhere in the GCA that allowed nonFFL's to avoid the use of an FFL in an interstate firearms transfer,,then it would perfectly legal for anyone from anywhere to go to any gunshow in any State and buy any gun and bring it home with them under the banner of it being a 'GIFT',,,but it isn't,,is it.


It's got nothing to do with being stopped at State lines, vehicle searches, registering firearms, who they trust, who they don't,ect.
It's simply the Federal interstate commerce laws for in this case,, firearms,, and how the law(s) are written.
It actually all started with the Federal Firearms Act of 1938.
That was a Title15 law. Commerce& Trade.
GCA68 was a rewrite& drastic additions PLUS a change to Title18 (Crimes & Enforcement) but it keeps the Federal interstate control laws in tact.


Try to pay attention here...

quote:

No, you are only breaking state laws if you are a RESIDENT of that state. Non-Residents traveling thru a state, are not subject to the same laws as the residents of the state.

That only applies going into Canada or Mexico.

Your kidding, right? You're really not that naive?

quote:

Your kidding, right? You're really not that naive?

How am I kidding???? I have made several trips thru New Mexico on my way to Colorado and other states to hunt, and no one has ever stopped me to check and see if I was traveling with a firearm. Now, you tell me who is kidding or naïve.

FOPA (Firearms Owners Protection Act) 1986 update to the GCA68 has a 'safe passage' provision in it.
It's intent was to make it allowable for a citizen of one state to travel with their legally owned firearms from one state to another w/o running afoul of State and Local firearms laws during travel through the different states only.
If you stop for any length of time in one of those states or you unpack the firearms while in any of those states,,the Safe Passage Provision no longer covers you and you are under the State & Local Firearms laws the same as any resident would be.
That may or may not put you at risk. It depends on what that States laws are, what firearm(s) you happen to have, how they are being secured and stowed.

The firearms must be legally owned in the persons State of residence and also must be legal to possess in the State of destination.

In the states that you pass through, you can not be charged with any (State or Local) firearms possession violations IF the guns are properly secured as/per the law.
They have to be unloaded of course, locked in a secure case and placed in a un-accessible area of the veh. Ammo also locked up separately from the firearms and inaccessable.
The real grey area of the law is what is allowable for stopping during travel. Food and gas of course. Overnight stay??
Unpacking the firearms is certainly not allowed under the law.

There have been many arrests of out of state travelers passing thru NY, MA and NJ dispite the FOPA law. Many have spent overnights in jail awaiting court/bail arraignments. Guns confiscated, lawyer costs, ect.
This most recent Congressional debate over background checks was to include a small provision to address the problems of certain State and Local L/E agencys not acknowledging the FOPA in it's entirety,, specificly the Safe Passage provision. But I don't know where it's gone to now.

See number 2. It still seems to preclude "gifts" unless it is inherited:

https://www.atf.gov/files/fire...earms-top-10-qas.pdf

I just recently transferred some family firearms to a relative, dealer to dealer with an instacheck at his end.

I'll tell you I was relieved because it was in the dealer's hands and above board, no sweat.

Added expense, for sure but I can walk away from the responsibility end of it with a clear head.

2152hq is correct. Where you are standing has no bearing on the fact that you are residents of different states, but you can transfer a long gun from an FFL in any state. i.e. I can buy, or otherwise obtain, a rifle from Missouri as a resident of Kansas by going to the Missouri FFL for transfer. I do not believe that is true with handguns.

Ramrod340 had the best answer, the firearms are being LOANED to you, with your mother retaining ownership (by oral agreement). When she dies they will become yours by inheritance.

If you lived in some godforsaken place like NY, Cal, etc then it would probably be best to transfer them via an FFL, but otherwise, I'd just take them home as gifts and be done with it.

They can be LOANED to the son for his use WHILE he is in the Mom's State.
If the son wants to take them back to his State of residence,,that's where the interstate transfer comes into play and an FFL has to be used for the transfer.

If the Mom retains possession AND leaves the firearm(s) to the Son in a legal & valid Will,,the firearm(s) CAN be legally transfered to the Son in another State with out going through an FFL upon the execution of that Will.

Living or not in a GodforSaken Land like NY or CA has nothing to do about it other than they are two different States of the 50.
It's Federal law,,it's in effect for transfers of ownership of firearms between any individuals who are residents
of ANY two different States.

Being friends, close family, shirt tail relatives or an all around great American has nothing to with it.

I don't think loaning a gun is a transfer. You can call it what you want. Under your scenario, if I am hunting with a friend in another state who is a resident of that state, and his gun breaks, I am unable to LOAN him a gun without his going hhru an FFL transfer.

The godforsaken states have other laws that might interfere with being in possession of a LOANED firearm was why they were mentioned.

No, I didn't say loaning a firearm to another person while in another state is a 'transfer'.

I said the following:
'They can be LOANED to the son for his use WHILE he is in the Mom's State.'

You can loan your gun while on a hunting trip in another State to the host for example for his/her use while you are there.
But that host cannot keep that firearm for themselves when you leave.
That would be an interstate transfer of a firearm (transfer of ownership).

If you trying to stretch the limits of 'loan' by saying you left it with him, you went back home, he still has the gun in another State, but it's really still mine,, wink, wink,,,sorry,,that won't fly. You made an interstate transfer of a firearm w/o going thru an FFL. Plain and simple.



Yes some States have more restrictive laws, but all the way thru this it;s been noted that State laws must be followed.
I posted in this thread on the 18th:
"State laws always have to be considered when making such a transfer.
It's just the way it is"

If you give a firearm to an FFL to sell on consignment and that firearm doesn't sell,,you have to go thru a 4473 & a NICS check to get your unsold gun back.
It wouldn't seems so since it's your gun that just didn't sell. But the Gov'ment sees it as a transfer of ownership when you gave it over to the FFL for consignment. Another transfer of ownership once again when the FFL hands it back to you.
..and all that w/o anyone being from out of state...
Same procedure to get a pawned firearm back.
4473 & NICS check to get your own gun back.

Not quite the same as the out of state transfer but it does show the mindset of 'transfer of ownership' written into the law.

Well, bullshit, a LOAN is not a transfer of ownership. The LOANER still owns it. Is that true or not true? If true, it isn't a transfer. No frigging wink, wink, involved.

You can define it anyway you want to.
The BATF and the 68GCA defines it differently.

If you go to an FFL in your state or out of state and the FFL LOANS you a firearm for use (hunting, target shooting, what ever for the day, week, ect),,you have to fill out the 4473 & have a NICS check done. Transfer of ownership. The Loaner (FFL) doesn't own it anymore as far as the GCA is concerned.
It's logged out to you. It's logged back in from you when you return with it.

If you take your own gun to your friends home in another state and loan it to him while you are still there for his use. That's OK,,no transfer of ownership,,you are still present.
If you leave and go home, leaving the gun to him (loaned it to him, sold it to him, gave it to give, lifetime permanent loan,, how ever you may choose to define it),,that is a transfer of ownership (interstate transfer of a firearm) and an FFL must be used for the transfer. That is how the GCA68 sees it.

Sorry if it all upsets you, but it's been that way since '68.
I can't blame for for being mad if you just realized they wrote off certain Second Ammendment rights nearly 45yrs ago that you thought you still had.
Gotta watch 'em closely. They're still at it.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(C)(5)] (bold emphasis mine)

quote:

(a)It shall be unlawful-

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to
transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to
any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not
reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in
which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall
not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who
is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of
the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

quote:

Originally posted by 2152hq:
You can define it anyway you want to.
The BATF and the 68GCA defines it differently.

If you go to an FFL in your state or out of state and the FFL LOANS you a firearm for use (hunting, target shooting, what ever for the day, week, ect),,you have to fill out the 4473 & have a NICS check done. Transfer of ownership. The Loaner (FFL) doesn't own it anymore as far as the GCA is concerned.
It's logged out to you. It's logged back in from you when you return with it.

If you take your own gun to your friends home in another state and loan it to him while you are still there for his use. That's OK,,no transfer of ownership,,you are still present.
If you leave and go home, leaving the gun to him (loaned it to him, sold it to him, gave it to give, lifetime permanent loan,, how ever you may choose to define it),,that is a transfer of ownership (interstate transfer of a firearm) and an FFL must be used for the transfer. That is how the GCA68 sees it.

Sorry if it all upsets you, but it's been that way since '68.
I can't blame for for being mad if you just realized they wrote off certain Second Ammendment rights nearly 45yrs ago that you thought you still had.
Gotta watch 'em closely. They're still at it.

Okay, what about "rental guns" ?

quote:

the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

Read it......'Illegal',,for any person (non ffl)
to 'transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to
any person' (non ffl)
who the transferor (that's the first non ffl) knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not
reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in
which the transferor resides.

Non FFL can't transfer a firearm to another non-FFL that resides in another State.
(Transfer=transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm)

Exceptions..
Bequeth (I already pointed that one out earlier in the thread.

The loan or rental of a firearm "FOR TEMPORARY USE'.....that's while you, the non-FFL owner are still there.
You can't leave it with the out of state Non-FFL and go back home w/o your gun.
If you do,,you have transfered the ownership of the gun to an out of state Non-ffl.
You have transported, given & delivered,, though you may choose other words,,the law does not

That transfer needs to be done thru an FFL.

I know you don't believe it and it's OK that you don't. But I'd suggest that you contact the BATFE in writeing (not by email) with your question very clearly stated and get a written response back from them.


Any firearm 'Rental' from an FFL either to a state resident or out of state resident must be done with a 4473 and NICS check.
The firearm is logged out of the dealer FFL log book as 'acquired by: name, ect'.
When it is returned, it is logged back in as a new aquisition from that same person on the date of return.

As stated above it is perfectly legal for an out of state non-ffl to rent a firearm to another non-ffl (or vise/versa).
For temporary use for lawful sporting purposes,,that's so hunting camps and shooting activitys at vacation spots, ect don't run outside of the law.

The out of state non-ffl that rented the firearm just can't take it back to his/her home state (or any other state) w/o it being an interstate transfer of ownership.
It's the 'for temporary use' language that sets the limits of the exclusion.

Wrong. You might argue over the definition of "temporary" but there is absolutely no stated requirement that the loaner be present or in state. I don't want your personal interpretations, I want you to quote a relevant legal statute that supports your position. So far you have not.