Duane Wiebe and Jim Kobe have recently posted a few threads regarding caliber changes on Classics and got me thinking (as I'm always lusting for something not already available...)

As I far as I can tell, ALL the Classic long actions have a magazine well that is set up for the length and taper of the .375H&H ONLY. That's it. One size of rail and ramp fits all. The only difference shows up on the RUM actions. They have a scallop on the left rail. Beyond that, the one size fits all naturally works better with some than with others.

Winchester saves money and time by having one action configuration and for the different rounds, "cleverly" installs a modified generic box, whether or not the box's taper has anything to do with the way the rounds stack!?!

For '06 based rounds, the boxes have a spacer at the rear and the top of the lips are folded inward to tighten and raise the stack at the junction of the feed rails. These hold five down easily and don't require the goofey "looped" spring.

For standard length magnums, the rear of the box has a spacer and the whole of the sidewalls are crimped inward at the rear, removing much of the taper. The tops of the walls remain straight to give the fatter rounds a place to stack outward. This precludes the necessity of a different taper on the action well and limits the box to three down. Echols opens the front of the action (among other things) to easily get four down and Kobe figured this out with a .375Ruger conversion.

For H&H length magnums, they leave out the spacer at the rear and do not bend the top lips inward. Because the stack is limited to three rounds, the tight-at-front/loose-at-rear stack still works - although less than ideally. The boxes also have the top rear corners knocked off to allow the belted portion to stack a little wider up under the feed lips. This does seem to lower the stack, however, and does not leave much case base to be picked up by the bolt face. This setup requires the goofey "looped" spring to keep those case bases up at the rear.

For the RUMs, they remove a rectangular notch on each side from the top of box walls. This gives the shoulder of the top case a place to move out into effectively widening and shortening the stack at the feed rail (otherwise the rounds would just pop out). Capacity is still limited to three and the taper of the box has no correlation with the taper of the stack.

Again, the above is as far as I can tell from what I've seen. Are there any box configurations that I'm missing (aftermarket and short or WSM actions not included)?

on a related note, I've had a couple short action Classics, a 308 and a 243

Both have the magazine boxes with spacers to give a ~2.850" magazine capacity.

My question is, without the spacer the mag box is ~3.100", what caliber and configuration ever utilized the box without the spacer?

I don't think all long action classics have the looped up spring. My 300 Weatherby didn't but I had a 7mm mag. that did..

The long actions had different magazine boxes. The one on my 300 Weatherby was "pinched in" at the rear. There is another wider box that's in the Winchester parts catalog that is no longer made. A friend has one of the wider boxes in his .416 rem. mag. (win. classic)

That's a good question free_miner. Beats me? I can only imagine what the WSSM boxes and rails look like. Can't imagine they feed worth a crap no matter what the configuration.

Looks like we can add a fifth box with the 3.65" ID and pinched in sides and a sixth with the .416 box. Terry, you wouldn't happen to know if the action on your friend's rifle was machined differently than what I'm describing?

All this is due to a stainless .458 barrel I've got kicking around and the desire to screw it into a stainless M70 action. I hoped to build a Lott starting with a .375H&H but the box and action are NOT setup to allow a simple barrel swap and my gun funds are pretty skinny for extra 'smithing. If the standard length magnums, like a 7mmRemMag, 300WinMag or .338WinMag come with a pinched in mag box like my Safari Express .458WinMag did, those actions should allow a pretty straight forward barrel swap and still feed with no action mods.

It is a crap shoot with spring, follower, rail and box configuration. I have three classic LH Model 70's apart down stairs. Two 270's and a 30-06. Two have magazine box's with lips bent inward and one of the 270's a straight walled box, different follower and different rails. I had an 06 4 years ago set up exactly the same as this 270.

quote:

If the standard length magnums, like a 7mmRemMag, 300WinMag or .338WinMag come with a pinched in mag box like my Safari Express .458WinMag did,

Not all of them did...as a matter of fact, I've never seen a "standard" magnum (7MM Rem Mag-338Win) have a narrow box. Not saying they didn't, but I haven't run across one yet. Might have been a 458 Win only deal???

The actions with narrowed boxes have narrower feed rails too. At least the H&H length actions do.

I suspect, that regardless of what box you use, you'll need to massage the feed rails to get a Lott to feed 110%.

quote:

Terry, you wouldn't happen to know if the action on your friend's rifle was machined differently than what I'm describing?

I'm not sure how it's made and it's been awhile since I've seen the rifle.

I would think that Echol's replaces the mag. box and follower on the long actions?

I believe Mark Penrod sometimes replaces the mag. box with the wider one and uses a Sunny Hill follower which is a little wider than normal for the 375HH.

I think I have one of the extra boxes that I made up for the 375 Ruger. It is the standard box, widened at the front .180" and no spacer in the back. I had to go back to the standard box, widen it as above and keep the spacer so the shorter 375 Ruger would feed better. We used a spring from the ultra-mag and standard issue follower I believe. It allowed 4 down!

Please note, that with this mod, the action needed to be machined to accept the wider box.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I think I have one of the extra boxes that I made up for the 375 Ruger. It is the standard box, widened at the front .180" and no spacer in the back. I had to go back to the standard box, widen it as above and keep the spacer so the shorter 375 Ruger would feed better. We used a spring from the ultra-mag and standard issue follower I believe. It allowed 4 down!

Please note, that with this mod, the action needed to be machined to accept the wider box.

Jim

You have a PM.

Jim, I think that's essentially what Echols does for his "4 down magnums" - fatter boxes, appropriate spring&follower and action opened to fit the box (and obviously, the myriad of small but ever so important modifications a professional knows how to execute).

Looks like my understanding is a bit too simplified and Winchester saw fit to throw all kinds of combinations on the market. Doesn't make any sense from my perspective but there's got to be some reason for it.

Thanks for the pics Chuck. Those two boxes show the outside profile of most of what I've seen. That taper matches the .375H&H quite nicely. The '06 rounds will stack in those boxes, especially with the spacer at the rear pushing the stack forward into the taper and with different feed rails and lip bends. None of those options are gonna work well with .458 though!

Std length Rugers are a much easier platform to make gunplumber swaps as they're fatter at front - even to the point of holding a Rigby based round without many mods. Too bad the bolt handle and safety weren't just a little larger...


Thanks for the posts everyone!