THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM GUNSMITHING FORUM


Moderators: jeffeosso
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Mounting a scope on a Merkel 141
 Login/Join
 
One of Us
posted
I would like to know what the options are for mounting a scope on my Merkel 141, about to be delivered to me. Talley, which would have been my first choice, told me that they do not make bases for this rifle. The German description of the rifle mentions that the rifle is pre=drilled and tapped for a German style rotating mount like an EAW, but I would prefer not ot go that route, if I can avoid it. I am interested in mounting a straight tube scope with long eye relief as low as possible.
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
You should go with the EAW type, but if you don't want to use one, the rib can be drilled and tapped for any base you want. Any gunsmith can make talley bases for a DR rib.
The only issue you might have, is, will your rifle regulate after mounting the scope. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. The easiest way is to simply put some Weaver bases on it with QD rings. Drill and tap 4 holes.
 
Posts: 17404 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of speerchucker30x378
posted Hide Post
Just as a matter of note. I have seen a lot of soft soldered ribs lifted off from kinetic energy after they have been drilled and tapped and had scopes mounted on them. Govern yourself accordingly.

The safest procedure is to make a solder on base and either cut out a portion of the rib and solder it directly to the bores or make a saddle type base that can be soldered to the bores and rib. If they are 2 piece bases you need a large enough footprint to take the stress. It means making two rather robust bases. Similar in footprint to what the Germans use on their classic claw mount systems. The saddle Type bases can be removed at a later date and the bores reblued if someone ever wants to return the gun to original. Neither of these options is cheap.


When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years!
Rod Henrickson
 
Posts: 2542 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada | Registered: 05 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
The rib is already D&T'd from the factory, and there are some kind of base and rings included in the sale (Burris?), but the rings are too high and I don't knw anything about Burris mounts.

I have emailed Merkel to find out what kind of pivot mount they are referring to in their description of the rifle, but so far no answer.
EAW mounts are available from NECG for "only" $425.00.
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of speerchucker30x378
posted Hide Post
If it comes drilled and tapped then it is a hard soldered rib or the rib has been designed with a large enough footprint to take any scope. Most all rings and bases are designed for bolt action rifles and for some reason Europeans tend to design combination guns and doubles to be shot with iron sights. Even with small scopes and ultra low bases and rings, I find the stocks are always to low to be shot comfortably after scoping and a leather cheek wrap has to be added or the gun restocked or the comb raised to American configurations.


When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years!
Rod Henrickson
 
Posts: 2542 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada | Registered: 05 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Or have the stock bent. This particular stock has a "Schweinsrücken" or hog back, which I detest almost as much as the Monte Carlo, but that may be possible to change.
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of speerchucker30x378
posted Hide Post
Yeaahhhh. Bending stocks is a bit of a complicated and expensive operation. Not many people have the skills required to do it. I expect you have to break or dent up a good number of stocks before they actually give you the decoder ring that's required to do it with any amount of regularity and precision. Also, I don't know how much of an upward bend you can do. I do know that it's one of those things that's far above my pay grade.


When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years!
Rod Henrickson
 
Posts: 2542 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada | Registered: 05 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
Have the stock bent? Do not try that.
These Merkels are made to have a scope mounted on the rib,, so there are many ways to do it if you won't want to spend the bucks for the factory one.
For about $12 you can get a set of Weaver flat bases and screw them on. After you drill and tap the rib. It ain't hard to do.
 
Posts: 17404 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Actually, I have a Greifelt S/S 16 gauge which Dietrich Apel bent the stock on, when he was still active with NECG. I odn't know whether he imparted his skills to anyone else there when he retired.
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I don't know how hard it is to bend a stock but sounds complicated. Now if you need to bend the barrel I can do that, doesn't seem to hard on a shotgun, or so I found out Frowner


Never rode a bull, but have shot some.

NRA life member
NRA LEO firearms instructor (retired)
NRA Golden Eagles member
 
Posts: 1513 | Location: Camp Verde, AZ | Registered: 13 December 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Andre Mertens
posted Hide Post
I like the saddle base type soldered over barrel and rib as recommended by Rod Henrickson . This is the type of base I have chosen to affix the Sühler claw mount on my FN-Browning o/u in 9,3x74R.



André
DRSS
---------

3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
 
Posts: 2420 | Location: Belgium | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Bon jour, Andre,

Actually, my Merkel is a side-by-side, not an over-and-under like your FN, so a saddle mount is out of the question. I have several O/U double rifles, and use saddle mounts on them.



Incidentally, I fully agree with your comment on three and five shot groupings. Back in the old days, we used to insist on TEN-shot groups to establish anything.

Merci!

Bill
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of speerchucker30x378
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by xausa:
Bon jour, Andre,

Actually, my Merkel is a side-by-side, not an over-and-under like your FN, so a saddle mount is out of the question. I have several O/U double rifles, and use saddle mounts on them.

Bill



Saddle mounts on a side x side are exactly the same as on an over an under. They sit over the rib like a saddle and go partly across both of the bores to get the required footprint, but do not drape over the sides like they do over a single barrel. They have about the same size footprint. It's simply accomplished horizontally instead of using both horizontal and vertical contact. They can be delaminated at some point and the gun reblued if the owner wishes to bring it back to original.


When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years!
Rod Henrickson
 
Posts: 2542 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada | Registered: 05 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
i've done it in 2 ways. 1st was to make a saddle and clamp it onto the rib with set screws, 2nd was on a merkel that i cut 2 dovetails into the rib and talley rings fit just right
 
Posts: 13466 | Location: faribault mn | Registered: 16 November 2004Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
I mill the dovetails directly onto the rib when there is enough metal to do so. Eleven millimeter QD rings.
 
Posts: 17404 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Andre Mertens
posted Hide Post
Sausa,
I swear, I've no interest in siding with Rod but the man is right again tu2 . In continental Europe, drive hunting is the most popular hunting mode and scoped double rifles are, if not the norm (€€€€€€), quite present nonetheless. Brazing saddle mounts to accept claw or swing-out mounts is quite common on both o/u and s/s double rifles (NB : in Belgium, France and most French speaking regions, we call them "express" rifles).


André
DRSS
---------

3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
 
Posts: 2420 | Location: Belgium | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Most recent Merkels have a removable insert that is replaced by a front socket for a Recknagel or EAW swing mount. The rear Recknagel base screws to the rib with 2 screws. That is what the mount latches to. I'll bet that's what this rifle has.


Quick, Cheap, or Good: Pick Two
 
Posts: 2177 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 18 February 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Andre Mertens
posted Hide Post
Chapuis does the same.


André
DRSS
---------

3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
 
Posts: 2420 | Location: Belgium | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I wrote directly to Merkel and asked for an explanation. The first reply I got was not very informative. "the Merkel 141 is prepared for a pivot scope mount." I asked for a further explanation, saying that I had visited both Recknagel and EAW's web sites and could find no listing of a mount designed for the Merkel 141. The reply was "Merkel works together with both Recknagel and EAW."

The most interesting part of the exchange was the name of the responder: Sebastian Schenk Graf von Staufenberg, in English, Count von Staufenberg, presumably a close relative of the German officer Claus von Staufenberg, who carried out the unsuccessful bomb assassination attempt on Hitler in July 1944, and was summarily executed as a result.

I then wrote to Recknagel, asking which of their mount bases would fit the Merkel 141, and am still awaiting an answer.

I suppose Mark at NECG would know the answer to my question, so that will be my next option.
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Andre Mertens
posted Hide Post
Same mount as shown on the Chapuis I posted above. The "schwenkmontage" you're referring to is most probably a EAW or Recknagel, as you were told already. The mount in question may or may not be listed in the firm's catalog. Formerly, EAW made a propriatery "Sauer" mount for the 200/202 series which was a little different than their own, as referenced in their catalog. The latter may be seen on this Sauer 202.


André
DRSS
---------

3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
 
Posts: 2420 | Location: Belgium | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
While we are on the subject of the Merkel 141, does anyone know how difficult it is to de-activate the automatic safety feature, which puts the rifle back on safe every time the breech is opened? Not an appropriate feature for a double rifle, in my opinion.
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Andre Mertens
posted Hide Post
Automatic safeties on shotguns (break action double rifles should not be different) rely on a sliding bar connected to the safety button. If I remember correctly, it can be simply lifted out of the action after removing the butt stock. After replacing the latter, try the now "manual" safety on/off to make sure it functions correctly.


André
DRSS
---------

3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
 
Posts: 2420 | Location: Belgium | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
The rifle arrived, and to my surprise was fitted with steel Weaver style bases and a pair of Leupold QD rings. The rings were too high, but I found I had a pair of the same model rings, which are quite low and which place the Leupold 1.5-5X Vari-X III scope exactly in my line of sight when I mount the rifle as I would one of my skeet shotguns. Now to get it sighted in and do an accuracy check!
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Andre Mertens
posted Hide Post
Strange as "Weaver style bases" are uncommon with European guns, more likely a local retrofit ?!? Could we see a photo ?


André
DRSS
---------

3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
 
Posts: 2420 | Location: Belgium | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
Weaver type bases are THE most common ones in the US, and even the Army adopted them, called the Picatinny rail. All they did was spec the rail notches. Europeans always wanted to over engineer stuff, and charge $375 for something that can be done with $37.50. Not criticizing Europeans by any means... I have several German claw and swivel mounted scopes
 
Posts: 17404 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I, too, was amazed at the choice of bases, They really seem incongruous with the rib, but once the scope is mounted, you can't see them. I may replace them with Talleys some day, if I can get flat bottom bases with the proper hole spacing.

I'll supply a photo later, but the previous owner seems to have fitted Weaver bases which match the pre-drilled holes in the rib (if, in fact, they are pre-drilled). Getting information from Merkel is like pulling teeth.
 
Posts: 1748 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
Doesn't matter now; just enjoy your new rifle and go shoot it.
I have made Talley and Kimber bases, and ribs, so it isn't a hard job.
 
Posts: 17404 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MacD37
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
Sausa,
I swear, I've no interest in siding with Rod but the man is right again tu2


quote:
Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:

The safest procedure is to make a solder on base and either cut out a portion of the rib and solder it directly to the bores or make a saddle type base that can be soldered to the bores and rib. If they are 2 piece bases you need a large enough footprint to take the stress. It means making two rather robust bases. Similar in footprint to what the Germans use on their classic claw mount systems. The saddle Type bases can be removed at a later date and the bores reblued if someone ever wants to return the gun to original. Neither of these options is cheap.


Rod seems to be well read in the mounting of bases but It seems a little strange that he doesn’t seem to know the difference between BORES and BARRELS! This may simply be the same as many folks calling cartridges BULLETS!
................................................................... Confused


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Andre Mertens
posted Hide Post
dpcd,
I'm not bashing Weaver type mounts (I do use a Picatinny myself on a Police .308) but still, on double rifles they're never seen in Europe. Reason is that for 99,99% we use doubles in drive hunting, where all shots are taken running and at close to medium range. Most hunters want to be able to take their scope on/off without disturbing the scope's zero (personally,I keep my 1,25-4x25 "battue" scope on at all ranges, even at very close range on a charging wounded wild boar. BTW, best keep scope height in mind and aim a little higher archer ). Among removable mounts, Sühler type claw mounts (my preferred classic) are the top, followed closely by swing-out mounts. Zero stability with a (artfully) hand-installed claw mount is absolute. The only reproach is cost... Here's a view of the hand filed hooks on the scope's rail and the bases shaped and soldered to the top barrel(s).
BTW, the works require a complete rebluing of the barrels.


André
DRSS
---------

3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.
 
Posts: 2420 | Location: Belgium | Registered: 25 August 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of speerchucker30x378
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andre Mertens:

Rod seems to be well read in the mounting of bases but It seems a little strange that he doesn’t seem to know the difference between BORES and BARRELS! This may simply be the same as many folks calling cartridges BULLETS!
................................................................... Confused




Actually, barrels are something that are found on firearms. Bores are something that are generally found on fine, combination sporting rifles, guns and shotguns. Being Canadian its probably a left over British thing like a knot of toad, leap of Leopard or murder of crow. I expect it's left over from a more civilized time when it was good taste and proper punctuation to capitalize game animals in print and NEVER to pluralize them. Sort of like rifles referring to rifled barreled firearms and guns referring to shotguns and paradox bored firearms.

At any rate. I don't read about this stuff much, but I have been doing it as a full time gunsmith since getting out of the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing 35 years ago.

coffee One of these days I do plan to grow up and get a job though. Or maybe just retire.


When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years!
Rod Henrickson
 
Posts: 2542 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada | Registered: 05 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of speerchucker30x378
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Weaver type bases are THE most common ones in the US, and even the Army adopted them, called the Picatinny rail. All they did was spec the rail notches. Europeans always wanted to over engineer stuff, and charge $375 for something that can be done with $37.50. Not criticizing Europeans by any means... I have several German claw and swivel mounted scopes



The Weaver style has and will always be my favorite mounting system. It is decidedly the strongest given the weight and the most simplistic. The only problem is that its pretty ugly and military looking when affixed to side by side guns. Mind you, most of the German / Austrian stuff doesn't look a whole hell of a lot better.

Always remember the German Law of Engineering dpcd:

" Why make something simple Otto, when it is so easy to make it complicated !"

coffee


When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years!
Rod Henrickson
 
Posts: 2542 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada | Registered: 05 June 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Dulltool17
posted Hide Post
quote:
Always remember the German Law of Engineering dpcd:" Why make something simple Otto, when it is so easy to make it complicated !"


Unless, of course your name is Mauser, in which case simplicity is relative to wonderful.


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 7503 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of speerchucker30x378
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dulltool17:
quote:
Always remember the German Law of Engineering dpcd:" Why make something simple Otto, when it is so easy to make it complicated !"


Unless, of course your name is Mauser, in which case simplicity is relative to wonderful.


The idea of 2 lugs rotating 90 degrees to lock the breach is indeed one of the simplest ideas to ever come around. Unfortunately, Paul Mauser must have been of German decent because the end product he designed is still one the most difficult and time consuming actions to replicate that has ever been made. LOL

ADD NOTE:
It is however one of the purdyest actions ever made. Why? I'm not sure. There must be something that is subliminally sexual about it. Put a Mauser 98 along side of a BAT, Stiller or Defiance action and people will always give the custom CNC soda pops a second glance and then start discussing which caliber and wood they would mate the 98 up into. People are funny critters !

popcorn


When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years!
Rod Henrickson
 
Posts: 2542 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada | Registered: 05 June 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MacD37
posted Hide Post
I deleted my last post as I think it was a little too much!

I revised my reply because I think the first one was unnecessarily costic.

..................Sorry if the first one offended anyone!

NEW!
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
Rod seems to be well read in the mounting of bases but It seems a little strange that he doesn’t seem to know the difference between BORES and BARRELS! This may simply be the same as many folks calling cartridges BULLETS!
................................................................... Confused




quote:
Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Actually, barrels are something that are found on firearms. Bores are something that are generally found on fine, combination sporting rifles, guns and shotguns.


Rod you are quite correct, all firearms have barrels, be they pistol, revolver, rifle, combo, or shotgun! All barrels have a BORE which is the inside of the barrel, be they smooth, rifled of paradox. coffee

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. old


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata  
 


Copyright December 1997-2023 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia