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So I am in the research phase of my second rifle build. I have a Charles Daly Mauser LA that I am going to turn into a 25-06. Building for a long range Couse and Antelope gun. I am very picky with my handloads and want the gun to be capable of 3/4 of inch or better at 100 yards. I realize its just not the barrel quality but lots of factors. In any event, I rebarreled a 22-250 about 5 years ago and went with a McGowen and went with a bigger contour than factory but not has fat as a heavy contour. When I do my part I can almost one hole the loads I came up with for it. I cut the threads and chambered it. This time I think I will have them cut the threads and chamber it since I do not have a reamer and it is just easier. Is McGowen still making decent barrels? I know I want a 1:9 twist but what barrel length would you consider minimum? Time is not important as their website says about 10 to 12 weeks out from time of order. Also thinking of going with a slightly heavier contour and fluting. Why? Just because it looks cool. Other than cutting some weight there is no other purpose right? Thanks! | ||
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If it were me I would go with a 26 inch. Any of the major barrel makes can turn out a accurate barrel I have had good luck with Douglas air gaged. McGowen should be good also. Others well recommend other manufacturers. | |||
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I use quite a few of them, I'm quite satisfied- especially for the price. It should have no problem delivering 3/4 minute provided the rest of the build does its part. JMO, YMMV ETA: For longer range/added velocity 26" barrel. Fluting can induce stress into a barrel, which is why most manuf's won't do it, or will special order and do the fluting before drilling. That said, I've not had any noticeable issues with fluted tubes. You're correct in that it cuts weight. A fluted one is lighter, but not as stiff as a non-fluted tube of the same diameter. | |||
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Douglas, turned to the 1930 Oberndorf pattern has proven to be more accurate than any other contour, judging from non scientific data I have. Or in a light pattern, the Earl of Marlborough one which is a light version of the Oberndorf used by Rigby in 1908. I have, and sell, both types. | |||
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my personal experience tells me that all the major barrel makers are turning out superb products..As with any commodity, we have our favorites and there will be an occasional bummer | |||
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Yeah, even the cheap barrels on today's chicken shit rifles shoot really good. The method of manufacture has really changed very little from the time Ed Shilen, Mike Walker and Clyde and Paul Hart perfected the button rifling process. Cut rifling has changed even less. I think the majority of the improvements that we see in today's barrels is mostly due to the stress relived, specialty steels that are available today. Back in the day, just about every manufacturer had to put in pressure points because the majority of barrels were subject to heat movement. Now days, many of today's guns are coming out free floated from the factory which indicates that the majority of the barrels are no longer affected by that heat movement. I think it was Boots Obermeyer who was quoted as saying that: "Any fool can pull a button through a barrel!" Well, any fool can pull a hook cutter through a barrel too. And both fools did. But I think it was the steel that has really changed what we see today from what we saw back in the 1970s. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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26". Any barrel maker is fine. Look at the scores and barrel makes used in F-class competition. They bounce around a lot, and lots of people chase the hot barrel maker. Then again, some names show up year after year with the same tired equipment names, but they seem to still shoot solid scores. I am more and more convinced that good fitting and machining matters more than which brand barrel you choose. If you want cool, go with a gain twist Bartlein. Jeremy | |||
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I sent a new Rem 700 action to McGowen for them to barrel in 338 Win Mag. Got it back this spring and I'm happy with it and would buy another. | |||
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Hell I've bought a bunch of Green Mountain barrel blanks. After I contour them, I cast a few laps and lap the bore before chambering and cutting to length. Those cheap $50-100 barrels shoot very well, easily sub MOA and likely 1/2 MOA. I use a lot of Brux and Mullerworks for the higher end stuff and they never disappoint, but those GM's shoot about as well, just more work to put into the finished product. Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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All barrels are not created equal.It will cost you a lot of money to learn this. | |||
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Out of a batch of 10, modern buzzard grade barrels, most will shoot pretty good. 2 will shoot really good. Out of a batch of 10, modern high grade barrels, most will shoot pretty good. 8 will shoot really good. There are no guaranties, but your odds go up significantly when you spend more money. Like the old horse breeders adage: "Breed the best to the best and pray for the best!" When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Anything from Wisconsin  "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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All about their tolerances, and what's acceptable to them (the manuf's)... I use GM's where sub moa isn't a requirement (though, it's sometimes had) and a full bull cylinder is what the customer wants. My expeeience is their bore diameters are not as consistent as the higher dolla blanks. Cost for me to contour would be prohibitive (and I won't do it anyway!). McGowen will do custom for a very reasonable charge..just send a drawing. Shilen does the smart thing, and throws 'em into two piles after they're air gauged. Best of the best are "Select Match", you know what you're getting (tolerance of one-tenth or less on the bore and three-tenths or less on the groove ) Ruger's got a half-dozen GFM hammer-forging machines (over a million bucks each) giving them all a run for their money. | |||
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I really fail to understand why people will put $650 Canadian, or nearly $500 USD labor into a barrel install and risk it all on a $200 (CAD) barrel. For another $200 (CAD)they could get a match quality barrel and an almost 80% guaranty that it is going to shoot really well. The logic befuddles me. But I don't understand liberals and children under 5 either. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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I had good luck with Ruger barrels but my last one in 458 Lott seemed like it could not stand the heat and went shit fast.Krieger's are good barrels accuracy wise.I am still examining how they stand up to heat.Walther Lothar's are very good barrels.I have Pac-nor on my 500NE double and so far they seem very good.I ordered two more for my Ruger Lott's.One of which I should have installed and in my hands in the upcoming weeks. So far I am down to three acceptable choices after eliminating other brands for various, quality type reasons.They are Walther Lothar,Krieger,and Pac-nor.I have not tried all the manufacturers.I would like to try Hyme.I had a Steyr once and liked the barrel.I don't know if they use the same steel as Heym does.I had used one brand that is supposed to be good in bench rest competition.It shot very well the fist time out but that was it.It melted like no other barrel.The worst barrel I had was a Douglas.One I never ordered and would not order as I had one before and proved short lived.I had asked for a Krieger and after waiting 4 yrs for that 15000 custom rifle,I received a Douglas instead.Whereas a couple of my Rugers grouped within an inch at 100yds first time out, the Douglas I received threw shots completely off target at that same distance. | |||
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Sorry to hear about your experience with Douglas barrels, but I for one have not had any bad experiences with their barrels. Is it the finest barrel on the planet, don't know about that, but have used Krieger, Shilen, Hart, Obermeyer, Pac Nor, etc., etc., over a period of some 50 years of competition and hunting applications and found the Douglas barrel to be very serviceable. For either High Power(across the course) matches or Long Range prone matches barrels are experiencing great deal of repeated heatings. Big bores are most unlikely to become hot due to repeated firings in short spans of time. A barrel that is touted by bench shooters do not see high heat, favorite saying by such shooters is "let your barrel cool..." in an effort to maintain what they see as desired accuracy and yes, barrel life. I don't see bench shooters preference for a given barrel as a real world recommendation for my style of shooting or hunting either. Do some mfg.'s use some "magic" steel in their barrels, answer is no for ordnance grade steel is the order of the day regardless of the shop that machines/rifles the barrels. I have shotguns with barrels made from Krupp in Germany, but that is nothing special regardless of their origin. By far, majority of people having trouble with a barrel is not the barrels fault but that of the trigger puller and the loads used. Precision rifle shooters who can not shoot precisely often blame the barrel/load or of course the wind but in reality it is the trigger puller. | |||
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Sounds to me like some have problems with most what ever they buy. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Instructor: Sorry to hear about your experience with Douglas barrels, but I for one have not had any bad experiences with their barrels. Is it the finest barrel on the planet, don't know about that, but have used Krieger, Shilen, Hart, Obermeyer, Pac Nor, etc., etc., over a period of some 50 years of competition and hunting applications and found the Douglas barrel to be very serviceable. For either High Power(across the course) matches or Long Range prone matches barrels are experiencing great deal of repeated heatings. Big bores are most unlikely to become hot due to repeated firings in short spans of time. A barrel that is touted by bench shooters do not see high heat, favorite saying by such shooters is "let your barrel cool..." in an effort to maintain what they see as desired accuracy and yes, barrel life. I don't see bench shooters preference for a given barrel as a real world recommendation for my style of shooting or hunting either. Do some mfg.'s use some "magic" steel in their barrels, answer is no for ordnance grade steel is the order of the day regardless of the shop that machines/rifles the barrels. I have shotguns with barrels made from Krupp in Germany, but that is nothing special regardless of their origin. By far, majority of people having trouble with a barrel is not the barrels fault but that of the trigger puller and the loads used. Precision rifle shooters who can not shoot precisely often blame the barrel/load or of course the wind but in reality it is the trigger puller.[/QUOTE quote "Big bores are most unlikely to become hot due to repeated firings in short spans of time." The ranges are near closing time when I get there and I don't have much time to shoot. I can shoot 50 to 100 rounds in half an hour or less.I've shot 50 or so 458 Lott rounds in that time frame on numerous outings same for 308 Win. and can say without a doubt the Lott barrels get much more hot than the 308 Palma barrels. | |||
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I would like to add that I will no longer buy a stainless steel barrel unless I have no choice. From now on it's chrome molly only.I was told from a someone who I believe is very knowledgeable in the field that stainless steel barrels are an industry scam. | |||
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It could be that my Douglas barrel was damaged from the machining as it was an integral machined barrel or from one or both of the gunmakers involved shooting solids through it. | |||
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Well now, 50 or so of 458Lott in half hour or so is quite an accomplishment in itself. See no earthly reason to do such, but to each his own. Try 10 shots in less than 60 seconds as in rapid fire XC matches, barrel gets hot and having done so for thousands of rounds with Douglas barrels find there performance is same as my Krieger barrels, no better or no worse. Any chance you have had shoulder surgery or eye retina surgery due to your "rapid firing" of a 458Lott?? | |||
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 Of course they are an industry scam. They last 25% longer because they resist heat and gas cutting better. They are more expensive. You can't blue them except with specialized chemicals and they never rust unless polluted with chromoly. As pressure vessels, stainless is not quite as strong as chromoly, especially in -30F climates, but I think the barrel makers assume you won't be shooting penguins, with double proof load pressures, in McMurdo, in the dead of winter. As far as accuracy goes I think that debate has long run it's course. Most of the people shooting competition use stainless barrels. But we all know that's because target shooters are CHEAP and even though the stainless barrels cost a bit more, they offset the cost in longevity! They don't use them because they shoot better. Chromoly shoots better but it's too expensive to use in the long haul because it burns out so fast ! LOL When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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What you have just said is what we were taught to believe mostly through the industry people on the internet(the net of lies).You should speak to my smith who is very knowledgeable in machining and steel.He will no doubt make you look like a fool. | |||
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Well, by all means. Illuminate us, as to the hidden addenda of the stainless steel conspiracy! I'm sure we would all love to hear his logic. Mind you, I'm just a machinist and gunsmith. But I even have schooling, an apprenticeship and one of them new fangled arts and sciences degrees that I got LONG before the internet was ever invented. But I'm never to old to learn. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Can you explain why the military does not use stainless steel barrels? | |||
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Well, actually, a lot of military weapons have stainless barrels. Most often, the military wants something that will stand up to the heat of heavy, sustained fire. For that, nothing beets chrome lined barrels. The problem however is that stainless steel is expensive and is very difficult and expensive to chrome plate. So the logical thinking for cost effective production is to simply use chromoly for barrels which will be chrome lined. It's cheaper, takes the chrome easier and it lasts twice as long as the more expensive stainless steel in an un-plated format. But as I recall. I asked you about the stainless steel conspiracy. I didn't want you to ask me for an education into military cost effectiveness. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Well, actually, a lot of military weapons have stainless barrels. Most often, the military wants something that will stand up to the heat of heavy, sustained fire. For that, nothing beets chrome lined barrels. The problem however is that stainless steel is expensive and is very difficult and expensive to chrome plate. So the logical thinking for cost effective production is to simply use chromoly for barrels which will be chrome lined. It's cheaper, takes the chrome easier and it lasts twice as long as the more expensive stainless steel in an un-plated format. But as I recall. I asked you about the stainless steel conspiracy. I didn't want you to ask me for an education into military cost effectiveness.[/QUOTE I see you know nothing about steel. | |||
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Ah yes! But it would seem, that I know nothing about steel, because you refuse to enlighten me ! I'm waiting. Patiently waiting. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Rod, don't bother. Arguing with a fool only makes him think you care and gets you nowhere. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Actually Larry, I wasn't really arguing. I just though I had latched on to a brand new conspiracy theory. I have listening to conspiracy theories since the year I was hatched, when JFK got shot. I have survived the ice age which the 1960s and 70s scientists claimed was just weeks away. I made it through acid rain (un-fried) which the scientists claimed would kill us all in a decade. Now I'm freezing my fawking ass off in Edmonton, Alberta Canada and getting ready for the -40F with high hopes that global warming will change all of that. Before it kills my ass. I'm just like everyone else. I love a good conspiracy theory and we don't get to many in the firearms industry. I actually hoped that Donald Trump was somehow behind this stainless steel thingy. But he's to busy releasing old documents about JFK that the CIA and FBI never bothered to shred because they contained little more than weather reports. LOL When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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I've seen some smiths opine that Kreiger barrels machine easier due to their cryo process...while others say it's BS. Either way, we are blessed with a lot of great barrel makers...Bartlein, Brux, Kreiger, Broughton, Lilja, Muller, Schneider and so on. Lots of great barrels out there. I have several Broughton barrels and they are spectacular. My most accurate rifle, a no joke 3/8 MOA 300 win mag has a basic Bartlein 5R 10tw M24 contour barrel. | |||
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My 6mm match rifle with a Bartlein barrel shoots extremely well. I would buy another Bartlein. DR #2276, P-100 2021 | |||
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Some people are just not satisfied with great barrels they want perfect barrels. | |||
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Rod is correct. But getting back to the OP getting sub MOA out of a 25 cal. is going to be a bit more testy than a 6MM or 6.5MM or 7MM because you can get much better bullets in those calibers. The 25-06 is good but the 6.5-06 will be easier to feed with good bullets and you have a much larger selection to choose from. just a thought. Joe | |||
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I knew someone was going to bring that up. 25 has always been my jinx caliber. I've owned several 257 Roberts, 25-06s and 257 Weatherbys. And one 25-35 Winchester in a model 94. The Winchester shot about 2 inches at 200 yards with peep sights and was hell on gophers. All of the others wouldn't shoot a fish in a bucket! Everyone always says it's the bullets. But they use the same manufacturing techniques and materials for those ones as the others. No, there aren't as many 25 caliber bullets out there, but there are enough that you would think that something would sure-the-hell work! But I dunno. On average, I've had really bad luck with 25s. I have no logical explanation for it and I can generally find reason for just about anything. Well, some of those explanations are a little far fetched, even for me to believe myself! They shoot well for other people. Just not me.When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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I considered a 6.5-06. Excuse my ignorance but it is just a necked down 06 case like the 25-06. I wouldn't need to trim or cut cases? I do like the 6.5 caliber better since bullet selection is much better and would fit need just as well. | |||
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My dad is getting to age where he can't help much anymore. So I want to build one more before his arthritis gets to the point where he cannot help me. Which is very close. Thanks for all the advice, opinions, and help. | |||
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I built only one 25 cal for myself and that was because my barrelmaker said 'here, try this', it was an unclaimed custom order. Built a featherweight profile M70 in a 25-284. Even with a 1.5-6X B&L it is one shooting SOB. Sub MOA with the first load I tried w/ 115 Noslers...guess I got lucky as I reamed the chamber with a 6mm-284 reamer I had and then the neck and throats with a 25-06... the durned thing shoots. Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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