7mm-08 on a sako 75 action would you buy a krieger or a pac nor barrel? anyones 2 cents would help.

Both are good. I shoot a lot of benchrest & Krieger win a lot ! I have had 3 ( Krieger ) on my gun & was very happy with them.

I have both and find them equally accurate.

I'd go with the Krieger. As a matter of fact, I just wrote the letter ordering a custom cut tonight and will mail it Monday. Always remember: "A poor man cannot afford cheap shoes."

Krieger, I think they have better quality control and there's less chance you'll be one of the unlucky few who get a dud. If your having the company do the install it's Krieger hands down, all IMO of course.

Well

Krieger is cutted barrels while pac nor are button rifeled.

I have used krieger and loves them, never used a pac nor but heard great things about them.

/ JOHAN

I will absolutely never do business with PacNor again. They may make good barrels but their workmanship in chambering is the absolute worst and they do not stand behind their work. I liked the long list of cartridges they chamber for so had them chamber one of their barrels for me. Big mistake. The chamber is egg shaped and so out of spec the RCBS dies will not work. A neck sizing die sizes the body of the case, the chamber is so big. I sent the dimensions of the chamber to a reamer maker and it is their opinion that PacNor let the reamer wobble around while chambering. When I called PacNor they said "it is within SAAMI spec' even before I told them which cartridge it was. There is no SAAMI spec for that particular cartridge. They did not answer e-mail with the drawing, measurements, and photos I took. Claimed they never got them. They did answer other e-mail about other products at the same e-mail address. They made the neck size die with the same reamer, the one that sizes the body too. They refused to talk about any type of fix or replacement. Let the buyer beware.

Funny thing is, Pac-Nor is quickly becoming a force to be reckoned with in barrels for NRA higpower rifle.

Their AR-15 barrels with the 1 in 6.5 twist are the dog's nuts at 600 yards and beyond with 90 grain VLD bullets.

I would be worried if PacNor were doing any work and one would be getting anything other than a barrel blank. Even then I have heard stories of problems PacNor would not resolve. There are lots of good barrel makers who stand behind their products. I will not be gambling with the likes of PacNor again. By the way, I am not the only one who has received poor workmanship and zero warranty from PacNor. I have heard from folks here and also the last time I mentioned this at another site.

I've never tried Pac Nor, but have heard about their mostly good reputation. I have used a bunch of Kriegers over the last several years. One (a .257) out of 12 barrels was a dud. All have been purchased as blanks and chambered by a rifle maker. I'll continue to use them.

Not saying your experience is not true Copper, but this is the first instance I have ever heard of with an unsatisfied customer from Pac Nor.

I wasn't too thrilled with a chambering job Pac-nor did on a M70 featherweight that I had them barrel and chamber to .257 roberts. I sent them a dummy round asking them to set the throat dimensions so the bullet touched the lands. When I got it back they had cut the throat .080" longer than I'd specified. I didn't try to get them to fix it, I modified the magazine box to allow me to seat the bullets out farther. They also left lapping compound all over the inside of the action from when they lapped the lugs, took me a can of brake cleaner sprayed through the vent hole to get it clean. I think their barrels are okay but I wasn't too impressed with their gunsmithing.

Pac-Nor and Kreiger barrels are both very good. I don't like the way Pac-Nor chambers their barrels, but the tubes themselves are great and I've used hundreds of them over the years. Yes, Lothar Walther makes a good barrel, but to call them the "best" is misleading. There are about ten"best" barrelmakers out there.

I used a Lilja for a 300 Tomahawk, and I am in the process of having a 6.5 WSM chambered with a Lilja barrel......The hardest part is the wait...

Frank D

Copper and Boltman are the first two complaints I've heard too about PacNor, still haven't heard one bad thing about there bbls though, I just hear more and more good is all. I'll let my smith do the chambering though. Thanks for the heads up.

Copper,

They made the neck size die with the same reamer, the one that sizes the body too.

How'd they make the body "sizing" die from the same reamer? They told you this, or did they use a seperate undersize die reamer?

I know Jim Carstensen makes Sizing dies with a chamber reamer but, he uses about a .030" thick pressed in sleeve that collapses enough to size the body down though. How else would it size the case down if it was identical to the chamber dims?

I spoke to Frank Green at Krieger yesterday; he said my barrel would go on the line in about 8 weeks. Yes, the hardest part is the waiting. Writing the check is the easy part.

Brent:
I asked them to make me a neck size die. I assumed they used the same reamer as the chambering reamer as I thought this was common practice. Brass fired in a cavity of a certain size should spring back some so it should fit back in with out a problem. The die uses Redding neck bushings for the neck sizing. (I sent them the die blank.) If I full length size cases with the RCBS dies I have and then fire them in the rifle I get bulged cases. If I then use the neck sizing die PacNor made it sizes down the body of these cases. It is not supposed to, but the cases are bulged. The cases are bulged because of sloppy shop practices at PacNor. I believe they chambered the rifle with out taking proper care so the chamber was way oversized. (I have measurements.) They took more care with the neck die, perhaps it was another person who did that work. The point is the chamber is way too big, they didn't make a body sizing die on purpose. I believe they made a die that was correct but the chamber was not. I had them make the neck die before I sent them the bulged cases as a way to check the quality of their workmanship. I have the bulged cases and they saw the bulged cases I sent them afterward. The cases are bulged more than what is generally recommended, for instance if one tries to form 6.5 swede brass from 30-06 the cases will chamber but will bulge more than is desirable. I get the undesirable bulge from the case the chamber was designed for. Hope I am explaining this ok. The point in my posting is that while they may make excellent barrels my experience has been the chambering is sloppy and they will not fix it. The two times I have posted to this effect, since I have not gotten any satisfaction from PacNor, I have gotten replies from other folks, some time private e-mail, that they have had problems too. I just wanted to warn people that they should think before spending money to get poor work that they will then need to spend more money to get good work from some other company who will stand behind the work they do.

Well I don't know about how bad there chamberings are, but I do know that there barrels themselves are greatest thing since sliced bread. I have heard 1 person complain about his friend getting a bad barrel from them. He explained that his friend got a barrel had it installed and the first or second round split the barrel. Well he said it was heat treated and after talking to the gunsmith I use to work for during college, he said that they have to heat treat them in order for them to stay together. So I didn't learn anything from him, but he just tried to give Pac-Nor a bad reputation. I have seen more bad reloaders that cause more gun damage than any other factor.

On another note. I recently purchased a Pac-Nor barrel and everything was to my specification. After installing it and test firing, I got great results. Half inch groups at 100 yards with factory Norma ammo. So I give them 2 thumbs up. Penny was very helpful and easy to communicate with. Yes I had to wait for it just like everyone else but it was well worth it.

Now as far as the subject of winning matches with this barrel or that barrel. Custom barrel manufactures all make good barrels and I don't believe that one is better than the other if they have any quality control. Hart, Krieger, Shilen, Pac-Nor, Walther, etc. there all good. They have all built a reputation on producing quality barrels that produce great accuracy with a competent shooter. To say that mine or yours is the better than every other barrel maker is extremely humorous to me. I have taken Weatherby barrels off that shoot 1 inch groups at 100 and when I looked down the bore it looked like a washboard. Yet it shot pretty decent. So take your pick there are all good.

Well I have a Pacnor on its way from the smith's 6BR chambering. I will give some in put when I get some work done with it.

Barrels are like dies, everyone hears the bad, but hardly ever a thank you too the ones that do a good job.
Jeff

I have used a small company for many years now to make my barrel blanks. I perform my own machine work. When using a .0001 indicator to locate center line of the bore The total indicator reading (T.I.R.) for concentricity between bore and groove depth has never gone over .0001 TIR. I have been very happy with K&P barrels, Ken Johnson is the barrel maker. Same price as everyone else, Great workmanship. Check them out!

I have three Pac-Nor barrels in .257 wby, .300 ultramag and .470NE. They are simply great. K&P make good barrels but take 6 months or more to get them to you I hear.

I own both a Krieger and a PacNor, I use the Kreiger in a 6.5-284 benchgun, and the PacNor is on a 308 Palma Rifle. Both rifles give outstanding accuracy, enough that I don't think anyone could really tell a difference. The only thing that was different between the 2 is that the PacNor seems to foul up with copper before the krieger, but I clean the barrels as soon as I am done shooting anyways.

I think the bottom line here is not who is better. I think the bottom line is who will stand behind the product. Every so often, even the best will screw up something for a variety of reasons; it's how they handle the problem in the end.

Well PacNor has done three barrelling jobs for me on my rifles. They first chambered a .35 Whelen that averages .60" at 100 but has gone under .27" (max loads of Varget and 250gr Hornady!!!) and a.223AI that cuts well under 1/2 moa with my fireforming loads, but they really screwed up a light weight .308. I got a 12 week estimate for delivery and Penny called me to say they made a mistake. They accidently moved my rifle to the front and finished the job the same week I shipped the action. She was worried I may not have budgeted the money and ready to pay so she said she would ship the action to me and I could send the money when I it was closer to the 12 weeks....Who else in the industry would have that kind of service? I feel that any of the top barrel makers turn out a technically great product but I will never look any where other than PacNor.

P.S.-The .308 is not shooting real good, only doing .70-80" with the 165 deepshok over Varget, but I guess I will have to suffer.

Pac-Nor did a fine job on my Ruger #1 in 300 Weatherby. I'd use'em again.

DanD: Your signature is so completely correct in its unargueable truth and simplicity.

[ 06-21-2003, 02:24: Message edited by: rootbeer ]

I have 3 pacnors,....280AI, 6.5-06AI, and a 300RUM. The 300RUM gave me a .250" last weekend with a 200gr Sierra MK over 88gr of H1000. My gunsmith evidently went to gunsmith schllo or shot benchrest with Chris the owner,...but anywho,, his statement to me was this

"if the barrel doesn't shoot, and I say it doesn't shoot, Chris next day airs me another one"

I'll take that along with the .3" and better groups that all three barrels give on a consistent basis.

I also have Harts and Lilja's,...and none are any more accurate than the rest.

I've worked with Pac-Nor extensively on my 600 Overkill project. There is not a nicer company to deal with in the world. If you know what you want and are experienced enough to know what you want done, they will do it for you and stand behind their work. They can't do magic, but they can make extremely accurate barrels and do some decent gunsmithing in addition. if your basically clueless, you'd better talk to a high end gunsmith like Dennis Olsen. I buy all my barrels from them exclusively and I'm damned picky.Can't tell you how many contests I've won with Pac-Nor barrels as I can't count that high anymore.-Rob

"if your basically clueless, you'd better talk to a high end gunsmith like Dennis Olsen."

That makes zero sense to me, the rifle IQ of the customer should have nothing to do with the finished project. If a Smith, any Smith is dealing with a person who isn't knowledgable with whats being done, a good one will take the time to help him understand and get him what he wants.