I have appreciated the craftsmen who have taken the time to take photos and post them in these forums......it is simply amazing the talent these people have.

For membership to the ACGG for stockmaking I always thought that the stock submitted for membership had to be made by hand from the blank.

While looking at Jim Kobe's Rigby thread I noticed that he is using a mill to do quite a bit of work, and also it has been suggested that he submit this work to apply for ACGG membership.

Now I can certainly understand the difference between using the mill and using a duplicator. Using the mill you are not copying anything, you are removing wood freehand but with precision tools. While with a duplicator you are removing wood using a pattern to come to a semi complete finish.

To me both of these methods, the mill and duplicator, use different skills to remove wood as opposed to removing the wood by hand tools alone.

My question is for membership to the ACGG as a stockmaker are you allowed to use machines like a mill to shape your application stock??
If so why are you allowed to use a mill yet not allowed to use a duplicator, as both methods require skill (to do the job correctly) and both methods start with a "blank"

But both of these methods are quite different from shaping the stock from a blank by using hand tools alone.

I look forward to being educated....Ian

Here is a partial copy of the rules as taken from the ACGG web site. I've put the info that is directly related to your question in BOLD. The original founders of the guild made the rules.

The most likely reason as to why you can use a mill and not a duplicator is to allow the Guild to know that you know how to lay out a stock correctly. Many who use a duplicator, do not do the work themselves and so they may never have had to do the detailed layout work.

However, since I have only been in the guild for the last few years maybe a few Guild members here that were around during the early days of the Guild might be in a better position to answer this in full detail.....

From the ACGG site:

To qualify as a Regular Member, an applicant must be a professional craftsperson who
actively solicits commissions to create custom firearms, all, or in part, or related items. An
applicant’s quality of craftsmanship in the categories: Stockmaker, Metalsmith, Engraver,
Metal Finisher should represent at least minimum professional standard for the field. Due
to their specialization aspect, an applicant’s quality of craftsmanship in all other categories
should represent excellent standard for the field. Members are expected to maintain good
business practices and high ethical standards in their relations with the public and their
peers. At the annual meeting, candidates are required to display at least two (2) examples
of work and be approved by a 2/3 majority of the members voting. Refer to the attached
“Requirements for Acceptance -Stockmaker,” “Requirements for Acceptance - Metalsmith,”
and “Requirements for Acceptance - Metal Finisher.”

--To Apply For Membership
An applicant for admittance to the Guild must submit work for viewing and acceptance by
the membership. The work in the category submitted for membership approval must be
Page 2 3/2009
completed by the candidate without the assistance of any outside party (e.g., all stockwork,
all metalwork, etc.).

---To apply for Regular Membership please do the following:
1. Fill out the personal information and signature on the Page 3 Applicant’s Signature Page.
2. Provide six (6) customer references who can verify workmanship and satisfactory business
practices. (Page 4 of Application)
3. Review all qualifications and sign application.
4. Submit signatures of three (3) or more current Regular Members who have reviewed work
samples. (Page 5 of Application)
5. Include a signed copy of your Federal Firearms License where applicable.
6. Enclose a check or money order for $260.00 payable to: American Custom Gunmakers
Guild.
7. Mail all forms and materials to: Jan Billeb, Executive Director, American Custom
Gunmakers Guild, 22 Vista View Ln, Cody, WY 82414-9606.


REQUIREMENTS FOR ACCEPTANCE - STOCKMAKER

An applicant must submit two stocks with the following work completed. All of this work must be performed
solely by the applicant.
1. INLETTING

a. Both stocks must be fully inlet, metal to wood.
b. At least one of the stocks must be laid out, inlet and shaped by hand. This means no use of
duplicating or pantograph machines (drill presses, hand saws, milling machines, etc. are, of course,
acceptable). We are making no judgments on the use of pantograph machines in the everyday life
of a stockmaker. We do believe, however, that a stockmaker should know how to make a stock "by
hand from the blank" and for this occasion we would like him/her to do so on at least one of the
examples.
c. The applicant must bring required hand tools to remove metal from wood for inspection of inletting.

2. STYLE
Style of stock work may be any the applicant desires and will be judged solely on the layout, quality of fit,
finish, detail and checkering.
3. FINISH
Finish may be any type the applicant feels is appropriate for the firearm displayed. Judging will be on
preparation, application, detail and overall appearance.
4. CHECKERING
a. Checkering will be judged on layout, sharpness of diamonds, straightness of lines, lack of overruns,
and overall appearance.
b. Patterns may be any the applicant desires.
5. SCREWS
All slotted screws must be indexed with slots parallel to the length of the firearm (north-south screws).
6. ADDITIONAL FEATURES
We would like to see these four features included at least once each. It is not necessary to include all four
features in each piece, but we would like to see one feature each from a, b, c, and d, somewhere on the two
stocks.
a. Steel, skeleton butt plate or leather covered pad.
b. Steel, skeleton grip cap or trap grip cap.
c. Ebony or contrasting forend tip.
d. Inletted sling swivel base or bases.
7. FUNCTIONING
Above all, the examples MUST function perfectly. This is CUSTOM work, which means superb in function
as well as esthetics. The applicant will submit along with the two firearms, a full magazine of dummy
cartridges for function testing.
Page 8 3/2009
8. RECOMMENDATIONS, TYPES OF FIREARMS
Since the purpose of this work is to show off the applicant's abilities as a stockmaker, it is recommended that
quality rifles or shotguns requiring a considerable amount of inletting and shaping be chosen. Mauser 98,
Model 70 Winchester, 03 Springfield, High-Wall Winchester, Hagn, Ruger #1, Model 21 Winchester, L.C.
Smith, Parker, any of the fine European shotguns, side-by-side or over-under, and, if you are lucky enough,
a fine double rifle would be great. Muzzleloaders are also a good choice.
What we would not like to see would be, for example, Model 12 Winchester, 870 Remington, etc. There is
nothing wrong with these firearms, they simply do not require the amount of inletting and shaping that we feel
is necessary to showcase one's skills.

Thanks Trez.....I was unable to find that on the ACGG website.
I know a lot of the work in making a stock is inletting it, probabl takes longer to do that than take off all the other wood that doesn't look like a stock....Ian

Kiwi,
I think you said it best in your first post. Duplicators duplicate. In using a mill the craftsman is making an original. I followed Mr. Kobe's project with fascination. I wish him well in Reno. What he didn't post pics of was all the hand work he did. Roughing in the inletting (pictured)would have been followed up with hours of final fitting using chisels and scrapers. Mr. Kobe 'squared up' the blank using the mill. Many stockers use a band saw for this. He didn't show how the stock was transformed from square to round. Work done with drawknives, spokeshaves, planes, rasps, and files. And, as Trez said, doing the lay-out so that everything comes out in the proper spot.

Thanks for posting that Trez, I have never seen it either. Hoping to be a regular member some day. #4 in the first colum will be a sticking point for me.

It's no mean feat to make a duplicate stock from a pattern, I have done dozens myself. But to machine a solid blank's inletting then get everything else right? Not quite so easy.

Perhaps the ACGG should require only homemade hand tools used in a log cabin under oil lamp light.

When I was at Trinidad we were required to make all our own chisels, scrapers and screwdrivers among other things. I still make most of my own chisels & scrapers simply because the commercial chisels & scrapers now available STILL don't have the special shapes needed for good inletting. I'll pass on the oil lamp though (G).

Machinery is good, but it sometimes causes folks to skip the basics of good handwork. Kinda like using a hand-held calculator to find the solution to math problems, it's convenient but most users are or become completely lost without the mechanical assistance because they've forgotten or maybe never learned to do it manually. That's why most machinery courses also emphasize file and stone work in the beginning, the machine can't do it all and the craftsman needs to show that he's competent even without the machine.

That's also why, as a surveyor and surveying instructor, I always insisted that my students & instrumentmen learn to do the calcs manually as well as with a calculator. The machine can often make up for the user's ignorance by its automatic actions, but the pencil (or in the ACGG case, the chisel) doesn't hide anything.

Actually I have MUCH more respect for a stockmaker who makes his own hand tools, that's one indicator that he really DOES know how to make a stock. Sure, you can hack out a stock using the factory-made chisels & scrapers, but the intricate little curves and angles of the wood-to-metal fit will always suffer if you don't use the properly-shaped tools.

For a good commentary on chisels, read the Dale Goens section in Monte Kennedy's Checkering & Carving book. Dale was one of the very best and has some of the most beautiful work shown in the book. I use his checkering patterns & ideas more than any others.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Perhaps the ACGG should require only homemade hand tools used in a log cabin under oil lamp light

Sounds fine on paper, but did'ya ever try to inlet a shadow? Humm.... not that I have or anything like that again..........

since you mention jim - yes he does do some on the mill, but the majority is done by hand. if you get a chance to swing by his shop in minnesota do so & you can be amazed of what can come out of such a small shop run by a man with such a big belly

My Daughter the Underwriter can run a pantograph machine and then install the metalwork & finish up, most anyone can do that, doesn't take a stockmaker.

The 'from a blank' requirement is there to ensure that the candidate is capable of a proper stock layout from scratch, with dimensions that work well together and also ergonomical & eye-pleasing shaping of a completely personally-accomplished nature.

Using a mill or drill press doesn't really help at all with the actual flow & beauty of the outside shape & lines, the smith must still form them each individually, with no help from a precut pattern or 'stencil' to create the shape for him as a pantograph would do.

A good workman can do splendid inletting but it takes somewhat of an artist to shape a pleasing outside, it's mighty hard to fake.
Regards, Joe

They have to do something to make more equal in difficulty the stockmaking and metalsmithing requirements--still much harder to qualify as a metalsmith though.

quote:

Originally posted by crf:
They have to do something to make more equal in difficulty the stockmaking and metalsmithing requirements--still much harder to qualify as a metalsmith though.

Opinions vary. Or did you invent a wood welder?