I have a model 54 winchester in a .270 winchester chambering. I had it checked by a gunsmith who said the headspace was fine. However, when I loaded and shot some medium level loads the brass exhibited a bright ring about 1/2" to 3/4" above the rim.

So I bought a set of Forster go no-go gauges and sure enough it closes on the no-go. You can feel it just start to resist closing at just about the end of the stroke. I don't have a field gauge.

My question is - what exactly is the issue here? If I partial full length size the brass so that I don't overwork the brass I assume I can get decent case life, but are there safety issues with doing this?

Or should I have a smith set the bbl back a turn and recut the chamber. The bbl has an integral front sight mount and an integral dovetail boss for a rear sight- I believe the bbl has to be set back exactly one turn--I don't know how challenging that is for a 'smith.

John

What you describe is marginal headspace. If it were my rifle I'd set it back a thread and fix it. The sight boss will set back just a little but not enough to be a problem that a couple minutes with a sharp gauge won't fix. Overall a simple job for which I charge $100, so I expect you should be able to get it done near you for around that amount. Good luck!

Thank you John - Thats pretty much what I thought. Fix it now and save problems down the road.

John

quote:

Originally posted by john h:
Thank you John - Thats pretty much what I thought. Fix it now and save problems down the road.

John

John H, $100.00 to correct the headspace on a vintage Win 54 is a steal. I would jump on Mr. Farners offer! A quality job will not detract from it's value.

quote:

Originally posted by john h:
You can feel it just start to resist closing at just about the end of the stroke.
John

The method I was taught is to let the handle on a stripped bolt drop by gravity, then see where it rests. Stripped on your rifle means remove the firing pin assembly and the extractor. Never attempt to close the bolt on a gauge by force other than gravity as this can damage the gauge or chamber.

If that is what you have done, and your bolt did not close fully on a no-go gauge, it is within spec. It is either within the SAAMI spec or it isn't. A term like marginal headspace is the same as a little bit pregnant. It doesn't apply.

Shoot it, reload for that chamber, spend the $100 on more powder.

I agree with Mr. Pursell.
Size the brass to that chamber and don't worry about it. Save the 100 bucks for something else.

M Pursell & Rusty,

Here is the definition of Marginal:

mar·gin·al (märj-nl)
adj.

4. Barely within a lower standard or limit of quality.


Tell me what he describes is not the same?

In time it will only get worse.

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
M Pursell & Rusty,

Here is the definition of Marginal:

mar·gin·al (märj-nl)
adj.

4. Barely within a lower standard or limit of quality.


Tell me what he describes is not the same?

In time it will only get worse.

The SAAMI specs for any cartridge are for a minimum length (go) and a maximum length (no go). The difference between those two lengths differs based on the cartridge, some are more generous than others. If the bolt will not close on the no go, the chamber length is within the specification. It doesn't matter whether it is on one end of the tolerance allowed or the other end, it's good. It a black and white thing. No gray area. Marginal refers to a gray area.

quote:

I agree with Mr. Pursell.
Size the brass to that chamber and don't worry about it. Save the 100 bucks for something else

Yep. The rifle is within spec. Set you die up for the rifle and use the $100 for shooting.

I think the headspace is indeed a bit long. I would not set the barrel back to correct it. It would cause the barrel to fit the stock with a bad gap where the sight boss sits. Instead, why not just size the brass to fit? Start by necking the brass up to a larger size, say .30 cal or so, next, size it back down a little at a time until the case just fits snug in the chamber with a bit of "crush". What this does is allow the case to fill the chamber without stretching it excessively. After you fire form them, only size them down enough to just close the bolt. Maybe a lot of extra work, but you won't ruin the looks of a fine rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by M Pursell:

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
M Pursell & Rusty,

Here is the definition of Marginal:

mar·gin·al (märj-nl)
adj.

4. Barely within a lower standard or limit of quality.


Tell me what he describes is not the same?

In time it will only get worse.

The SAAMI specs for any cartridge are for a minimum length (go) and a maximum length (no go). The difference between those two lengths differs based on the cartridge, some are more generous than others. If the bolt will not close on the no go, the chamber length is within the specification. It doesn't matter whether it is on one end of the tolerance allowed or the other end, it's good. It a black and white thing. No gray area. Marginal refers to a gray area.

Wow, your reading ability is a close second to your gunmaking ability, both of which are marginal.

Rem721,
Why are you trying to start a pissing contest? Rusty and Mr Pursell are correct. No call for that kind of remark.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Rem721,
Why are you trying to start a pissing contest? Rusty and Mr Pursell are correct. No call for that kind of remark.
Butch

Not trying to start a pissing match. Simply stating that marginal in this case does not mean grey, rather it means at the lower end of acceptible and that is exactly what John H's headspace is, marginal.

True, that the no-go gage just closes (probably with more help than should be used) but that simply means it barely passes. the issue is not pass/fail but by how much. In this case barely. My experience has taught me that barely usually leads to fail in short time.

True that you can simply neck size brass after firing it but those first shots don't do much for the lug seats. I'm a firm beliver in minimal headspace, not maximal.

aw chit guys - just plunk some jb weld in the cham ber to fill it in

quote:

I'm a firm beliver in minimal headspace, not maximal.

Can you tell us why?

Remember, this is a Model 54 in 270. The question was "is this safe to use".

Most set up for minimal headspace when installing a new barrel. For maximal accuracy, minimal headspace may be appropriate, but I believe his gunsmith was exactly correct in this situation. If fact, I think he would be severly critisied if he told the client that the rifle needed to have the barrel set back or redone when it was within SAAMI specs. (Of course, he could explain that if he were to shoot thousands of rounds a year it might eventually get "out of spec" and need work.)

What you are saying is that you disagree with the standards developed by the engineers at SAAMI, who after extensive review and discussion of the technical data, found the range for headspace for safe use and published it. I wonder if there is a logic or reason for your belief?

If the issue is case life, he can just neck size the once fired cases, have excellent case life and still have a weapon that will safely fire any off the shelf round.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
aw chit guys - just plunk some jb weld in the cham ber to fill it in

quote:

Originally posted by RogerR:

quote:

I'm a firm beliver in minimal headspace, not maximal.

Can you tell us why?

Remember, this is a Model 54 in 270. The question was "is this safe to use".

Most set up for minimal headspace when installing a new barrel. For maximal accuracy, minimal headspace may be appropriate, but I believe his gunsmith was exactly correct in this situation. If fact, I think he would be severly critisied if he told the client that the rifle needed to have the barrel set back or redone when it was within SAAMI specs. (Of course, he could explain that if he were to shoot thousands of rounds a year it might eventually get "out of spec" and need work.)

What you are saying is that you disagree with the standards developed by the engineers at SAAMI, who after extensive review and discussion of the technical data, found the range for headspace for safe use and published it. I wonder if there is a logic or reason for your belief?

If the issue is case life, he can just neck size the once fired cases, have excellent case life and still have a weapon that will safely fire any off the shelf round.

Please re-read my replies. I said the headspace was marginal. If you cannot understand that please feel free to consult the dictuonary of your choice. I did not say it was unsafe.

As to why I prefer minimal headspace, well, you already list many good reasons. I'll add to it that with brass being the way it is these days (for the most part considerably undersized) given a choice, I will opt for minimal every time. If you have a chamber that is marginal (at SAAMI max specs) and brass that is running at SAAMI minimums, you'll see that you have considerable headspace. No two ways about it.

So, make mine a minimum chamber please.

#1). .270 (.27/'06) is the original hot rod, loaded to 55K CUP from the start. You are working up at the top end of safe and sane. Load down a grain or three and you will get much better accuracy as a rule and more safety.
#2). Your tale seems to indicate the headspace is safe but on the long side. I knew a gunsmith who set things up like this so he and his customers could neck size and get a bit more powder capacity...
#3). No-go guage is a manufacturers tool. "Go guage" tells that the gun will accept all ammo. "No-go" guage tells that a NEW gun will not let a new case stretch to break and release gas and be unsafe. Many, many rifles with some use will take a "no-go" guage without hesitation. Firing "loosens" up the action. Try it on used guns if the shop owner will let you... Promise to keep your mouth shut. Most don't understand.
#4). SO if you seek the ultimate in safety and do not care about damaging the condition of a Win 54, "collector value", have the barrel set back. If you can live with things as they are, SHOOT IT. OR you could sell it as a collector and buy a couple rifles that suit your sense of "safe..."
#5). And yes, if you just neck size... decent brass, you should get buy fine with any load that isn't unsafe in most other guns. LUCK.
PS, there is no civilian "field guage." .270 uses same as '06 so you can find them. A "field guage" tells the military armourer that the firing pin might not reach the primer and the gun might not go off. Bad experience is someone is shooting at you. Most game animals just run off. Yes, when it is eating "field guages" then cases are more likely to separate, but on the first firing with military brass... long shot.

quote:

Originally posted by M Pursell:
If that is what you have done, and your bolt did not close fully on a no-go gauge, it is within spec. It is either within the SAAMI spec or it isn't.

IF however, the stripped bolt's handle touches the receiver, then consider the gun unsafe. Consider also that a professional gunsmith would have to be foolish to recommend ways of getting around a potential safety issue.

With the proliferation of liability lawsuits brought about by unscrupulous, low life, sleaze bag attorney's, you won't find too many real gunsmiths giving much more liberal advice without seeing the weapon first hand.

With so much bullshit flowing over the net, one has to be very careful which advice they follow when safety is a factor. After all it will be your face on the receiving end. Not that anything bad WILL happen in this instance, just becareful in general.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by M Pursell:
If that is what you have done, and your bolt did not close fully on a no-go gauge, it is within spec. It is either within the SAAMI spec or it isn't.

IF however, the stripped bolt's handle touches the receiver, then consider the gun unsafe. Consider also that a professional gunsmith would have to be foolish to recommend ways of getting around a potential safety issue.

With the proliferation of liability lawsuits brought about by unscrupulous, low life, sleaze bag attorney's, you won't find too many real gunsmiths giving much more liberal advice without seeing the weapon first hand.

With so much bullshit flowing over the net, one has to be very careful which advice they follow when safety is a factor. After all it will be your face on the receiving end. Not that anything bad WILL happen in this instance, just becareful in general.

Westpac, in what way have I recommended getting around a potential safety issue? Please consider that I'm asking you this after the flack and insults that hurled at me here and I'm not being defensive about your comments. I don't mind disagreements or even arguments, I just prefer to keep them polite and civil.

quote:

Originally posted by M Pursell:
Westpac, in what way have I recommended getting around a potential safety issue?

Wasn't implying anything by that post. I just grabbed that line to quote. It just happened to be yours.

My post in general is directed to folks who might suggest solutions to a potential safety problem without ever laying eye's on the actual gun. What works for them may not be the solution to this guy's problem. Gunsmiths use measuring equipment for a reason. If he is concerned about his safety, he could go for a second and a third opinion...

Thank you for the insight into this. I stripped the bolt and redid the headspace measurement. The bolt closes freely when no gauge is installed, the bolt closes freely when the "go" gauge is installed. The bolt does not close on its own with the "no-go" gauge - I'd guess it has about 15 degrees to rotate to close.

I was concerned mostly about the possibility of case head separation, or rather, the increased possibility of casehead separation had there been a headspace issue. The model 54 bolt does not have any gas control shrouds.

John

quote:

Originally posted by john h:
The bolt does not close on its own with the "no-go" gauge - I'd guess it has about 15 degrees to rotate to close.

Good deal! If you want to know where your brass is, take some of that $100 and purchase a Wilson case gauge.

I have the Wilson gauges - I love them. Especially for my .300 Winnie.

I have not used this rifle much - it belonged to an old gentlemen who taught my dad how to hunt, probably in the 40's. He gifted dad the rifle just before he passed on. Dad gave it to me.

Somewhere along the line the original stock was wrecked. I've been working on it off and on for the last couple years making a stock for it. It has a 50's (guessing) Leupold Rifleman scope mounted on it (crooked).

I've always felt it should be ressurected, and hunted. I've been debating with myself about having it rust blued. The action is actually not terribly worn, the bbl past the forearm is silver.

Just taking my time and doing a little here and a little there - trying not to do anything that can't be undone.

Again - thanks to all for the help.

john

Perhaps I should clarify my original post. I was under the impression that the No-Go gauge would not allow the bolt to close. This was verified by the last post. I did recommend resizing the brass to fit, but only to allow him to keep his brass from causing a case head separation.

Westpac is correct in his asuumption that no responsible person would skirt the safety issue.
I did not intend to give that impression.

I don't see any reason to mess with the headspace. It does not appear that its headspace is long enough to allow a head separation on the initial firing of a factory load. Since it is not unsafe with factory loads, the only problem is that once fired in the gun, the brass from a factory load will have a weakened web due to stretching and should NOT be reloaded.

Since you are a reloader, simply avoid using brass from factory rounds and instead use .30-06 (or even .280 Remington) brass that is resized in your .270 WCF die only enough to enter the chamber. The "false shoulder" on the resized '06 brass will provide you with perfect headspace. Subsequently always set your resizing die only deep enough in the press to allow chambering without resistance. If you feel that having the proper headstamp is necessary, then first expand virgin .270 brass with a .284" expander, then treat it as described above.

Remember, headspace is the relationship between the length of the chamber and the corresponding length of the brass used in it. The chamber is not too long if the brass is not too short.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
I don't see any reason to mess with the headspace. It does not appear that its headspace is long enough to allow a head separation on the initial firing of a factory load. Since it is not unsafe with factory loads, the only problem is that once fired in the gun, the brass from a factory load will have a weakened web due to stretching and should NOT be reloaded.

Since you are a reloader, simply avoid using brass from factory rounds and instead use .30-06 (or even .280 Remington) brass that is resized in your .270 WCF die only enough to enter the chamber. The "false shoulder" on the resized '06 brass will provide you with perfect headspace. Subsequently always set your resizing die only deep enough in the press to allow chambering without resistance. If you feel that having the proper headstamp is necessary, then first expand virgin .270 brass with a .284" expander, then treat it as described above.

Remember, headspace is the relationship between the length of the chamber and the corresponding length of the brass used in it. The chamber is not too long if the brass is not too short.

I could have sworn that is what I said in an eariler post.

The only argument I have against leaving it as it is:

With marginal headspace I hope we can all agree that it will not get better on its own. That being said, can anyone say how long it will be before the issue progresses to a point where it is in fact not safe?

It is my opinion that one should not wait for a case to separate before fixing things. "A stitch in time saves nine" and all that.

Cheers,

John,
Unless the lug abuttments are set back or soft, I could see it shooting many thousands of rounds without any problem. The only problem would be excessively bumped shoulders and that can happen with a tight headspace.
Consider this. My Buds shoot a .100 long 30BR. In otherwords the shoulder moves forward on the first 1 or 2 firings in the amount of .100. The die is set properly for the chamber and you can reload them numerous times without case head failure.
I wouldn't chamber a customer barrel that is using factory ammo with excessive headspace.
Butch

OK Guys, I'm going to show my ignorance here!

Is it possible to either modify the existing bolt or purchase something new that can be made to fit a Model 54?

I don't like to spend other peoples money, but John s interested in restoring this gun, and if a new bolt can solve the issue he can still keep the old one for authenticity's sake.

I have never heard of shimming or bushing the nose of a bolt other than the SMLE, but I have always wondered why it couldn't be done?

Edited to add- I see a pre-64 M70 bolt can be modified to fit, and it sounds like a stripped bolt should cycle in the action so perhaps you could borrow one to see if it would fix your headspace issue.

Mark,
I think they determined that it was in fact within tolerance. He just needs to shoot it.
Butch

Butch, thanks for the clarification!
Mark

If you start with virgin brass and load it initially long to seat the bullet against the rifling and simply treat the rifle alike "wildcat" the actual dimension relative to any standard
(weather arbitrary or carved by the glowing finger of God or SAAMI)it becomes irrelevant.

The reason he is getting a bright ring from the brass stretching is not ENTIRELY from a maximum length chamber
But rather because the extractor is not holding the round against the bolt face on firing.

If you manage to accomplish that by some other means
1)seating bullets long,
2)running a 7mm expander through the neck and
creating a short "false shoulder".
OR
3)Simply running a 270Gibbs reamer into the chamber,
an AI reamer won't do it, you'll be spending the money on a 270gibbs die set instead...

It becomes more of a non-issue than in essence it already is.

Fireform cases with a bullet seated out enough that it takes effort to close the bolt and then partial full length resize thereafter, to make brass that fits the chamber of THAT particular rifle.

"headspace" is REALLY defines as the case not fitting the chamber and there is as the saying goes, more then one way to skin a cat, a headspace guage is only a TOOL to MEASURE headspace.

If you make "custom fitted" brass that only fits YOUR rifle the only downside is that your particular winchester Model 54 doesn't match every other rifle in the world that's chambered for the 270win cartridge.

Headspace standards revolve more around the word "Standard" than anything else....

This does not mean that NONstandard won't work just as well.... it just means that it is DIFFERENT from the established standard.

AD

Damn.....isn't that what I said a few posts ago?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Damn.....isn't that what I said a few posts ago?

In essence, you did, Jim. Be flattered that so many, including myself, share your viewpoint. We just like to take the floor for a moment to say it in our own way .

Parenthitically, I doubt that the headspace on that old 54 has ever been anything other than exactly what it is right now. It should be no surprise to anyone that ammunition manufacturers like to make their ammunition as "small" as possible to ensure that it fits any chamber. Shooters gripe if ammunition chambers hard, but only one in a dozen will ever notice if the fired cases have stretched like a rubber band.