Hello Allen,
AT the last SCI show I spoke with Mr.Echols. We got onto the subject of The Dakota76 action,which he showed some diregard for.
He said something along the lines of"what can you expect when a man that is an aircraft enthusiast,decides to design a rifle action."
He also said some other words which I dont exactly recall,but they were not in favour,of the D76.
If he is using M70s in his LEGEND builds,which to me seem so similar to a D76,then what is it that makes the D76 so inferior. I am asking here because he didnt actually tell me why he disliked them, maybe you know why.

I really don't know. All I've talked about with D'Arcy are Model 70s and Mausers. I'm a Winchester guy, so that's what I'm interested in, as well as good military and commercial Mausers.

AD

Wasn't Pete Grisel the actual designer of the M76 and Don Allen the money man? I spoke to Mr. Echols a few years back at SCI and also asked him about the Dakota 76. The only thing he related to me was that one will have spent the same amount of money for the action and labor to get the same end result when comparing the two actions.

A number of riflesmiths have told me that they feel the Dakota action is very soft and the tolerances and heat-treating aren't that great. One thing I've seen for myself, and another riflesmiths have pointed this out to me, is that the Dakota magazine box is really thin, and really flimsey. This does not work with big cartridges.....

This much I know: Winchester chrome-moly steel is some of the finest available, and the Winchester fabrication method of forging receivers from solid billets of chrome-moly steel greatly improves the grain structure of the steel, these billets being machined on CNC lathes to final form, and then heat-treated in a most exacting, scientific manner.

Contrary to ignorant opinion, some of which has been dispensed right here, on this very forum, these M70 receivers are NOT INVESTMENT CAST. See Otteson's book, "The Bolt Action", for details.

Combine the reasonable price of a Model 70 rifle to be sourced for the action and the sophisticated fabrication methods that are at USRACs disposal, plus the added value of the WINCHESTER logo on the rifle, and it's easy to see why guys like D'Arcy and Dave Miller use this action so extensively...........

AD

quote:

Originally posted by DavidReed:
Wasn't Pete Grisel the actual designer of the M76 and Don Allen the money man? I spoke to Mr. Echols a few years back at SCI and also asked him about the Dakota 76. The only thing he related to me was that one will have spent the same amount of money for the action and labor to get the same end result when comparing the two actions.

I believe it was a collaboration. Pete Grizel had his own small ring mauser action on the market just before collaborating with Don Allen when Allen left Northfield Minnesota for Sturgis South Dakota.

It is really too bad that Grizel didn't keep making that small ring mauser. It was very close in design to the G.33/40 action.

quote:

Originally posted by gnmkr:
Without speaking for anyone else, there is an undercurrent of animocity towards Dakota because Mr. Allen made liberal use of "borrowing" ideas and concepts from numerous craftsmen in the trade without acknowledgement nor compensation. Some blame norma, some DA, God rest his soul.
One would only need to ask the Little Sharps Rifle Co., Pete Grisel, M.Hagn, Stan McFarland, or numerous others for their personal opinion.
sdh

Probably very true. But those folks you mention certainly had the ability to patent their designs to protect them. In a sense, every rifle maker has copied the "bolt action" design from whoever first designed it. If you look at todays current companies you could certainly say that Montana Rifle Company and Waffenbrik Hein are making copies of the Winchester action, and I would bet that Peter Noreen didn't pay wincheser when he started making his copies that Waffenbrik Hein later purchased from him. I think that another who is well known for copying designs was Mr. Ruger!

I will opine here that using designs already in the public domain is not infringement, and if you have a patentable design go for it.

The patent gives you a license to enforce it in court. A company here in San Diego budgets $500,000 a year for patent defense, and they are a small outfit as such things go.

All of the older Mauser, Winchester and Remington (etc.) patents passed into the public domain many years ago.

I don't rate these actions on who shot John, but rather the quality of the maker's implementation.

jim

Jim,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The law is the law.

However, there is such a thing as integrity and justice is meted out to those who step over that line.

I have been out of the loop (Guilds) for too long to truely know the inside story. But, I have heard rumblings and I trust the sources. For many, I think, an acknowledgement would have sufficed.