Get the 70. I have two, one in 416 and the other in 375. The 375 went to Africa with me and I took 5 animals with it. I've never done squat to it, other than use my handloads. Accuracy is under 1", closer to .5. The 375 is a "pre SC move" rifle and the 416 is less than 6 months old. That holds 1" MOA with factory loads. Having said all that, I still would send the rifle to Penrod or any gunsmith you trust. jorge

What is the verdict on the winchester m70 safari express coming out of the factory these days? To save a little money on a custom 375, I was planning on using one of these rifles and having it sent to Jim Brockman to have him check the action over and tune it up, bed it, have a new recoil pad installed, and his pop-up peep sights installed with 8-40 screws. Does this sound like a good idea? Anything else you might recommend? Any other problems I should worry about with a factory m70 safari express? Thanks for your input.

Sevens

There is a lot of things that I would do. But trying to save money on this type of an outfit, for me anyway, isn't really worth it. It seems like there is always a corner getting cut that you end up regretting later. I bought a LH safari express that had been on back order for five years. After looking it over, I sold it. Fortunately I didn't lose anything on the deal. I would call John Ricks or Mark Penrod, ask their advise, and take your pick based on budget or time frame.



I would suggest a Model 70 action, custom bottom metal, McMillan Stock (D'Arcy Echols sells a wonderful pattern that McMillan builds for him), spring steel extractor etc.



I saw this quote while standing in line in a Red Wings shoe store that I like and feel might apply here. Spend a little more and be happy for alot longer.

Chuck,
That's a fancy way to say you get what you pay for. I might just break down and get a RSM. The rifles just so darn barrel heavy for a 375. Maybe a CZ 550 american in field grade would be better. just needs cross bolts, bedding, and a barrel band. I think I went back to square one.
Sevens

I think John Barsness' recent article about custom guns says a lot about this. Basically - try a factory first. It just might work.



We talk about the downgrading of quality in recent factory rifles, particularly Winchester and Remington, and I have certainly seen several individual examples of that. BUT - from personal experience, I can say that not every single rifle they turn out is crap.



The last two Winchesters I bought, one a M70 Safari Express in .375 and one in .30-06, are just great right out of the box. Sure, they could both use a trigger job and the .375 could use some relieving of the forearm and glass bedding, as it tends to walk the shots a bit. Even with the walking though, it remains plenty acurate enough for three hundred yard shots at plains game and definitely minute of dangerous game at the ranges DG is shot. But most of all, it functions perfectly. It feeds, fires, extracts and ejects 100%. The safety is smooth, positive and silent. The bolt travel is smooth as can be and doesn't bind. What is $2000 or $3000 or $5000 going to get you more than 100% reliability?



So try it - if it doesn't work like you think it should then there are lots of good gunsmiths that can certainly do whatever is necessary to bring it up to par. And even if it does need some work, it might just need tweaking, not a complete tear down and rebuild. But if it does work, then use the several thousand dollars you will save and go hunting.

Okay, it's late at night and I've got nothing else to do... Anyway, I thought of one more thing. JJHack who posts here occasionally was a guide in Alaska for a long time for both black and grizzly bears as well as bears and lions in the lower 48. He is now an African PH in RSA.

His .375 is a stainless Model 70 whose innards are basically factory original. He put a Rimrock stock on it to replace the factory tupperware and sent it to Hill Country rifles but, IIRC, all they did was their accuracy work - recrowning, trigger job, stuff like that.

But everything else is factory original equipment - stock sights, stock action, trigger, stock barrel.

Now to be honest, after a couple seasons as a PH he had John Ricks make him a custom .458 Lott on a M70 because he needed a dedicated clobbering rifle for Cape Buffalo. I've contacted Mr. Ricks and know what he does to build a custom rifle and he builds a good'un.

But back to the point - a professional guide of long experience trusted his factory Model 70 enough to carry it as backup against big toothy nastys for several years.

I'm a dedicated rifle loony and like to replace stuff just for the heck of it. But in calmer moments, I have to say that the Model 70 Safari Express's I've worked with - and I have two, a stainless and a blued one - were plenty good enough right out of the box to hunt with. Trigger jobs and rebedding to replace that hot glue crap - and a'hunting you shall go.

I have spoken with JJHack about his m70's. I think I have just become entangled in all this hype about CRF, make mine a mauser, and this factory rifle doesn't work gossip. Although, I sure would hate to die because my damb rifle didn't work when I needed it most.
Sevens

In 1990. I bought one of the first RSM rifles in .375H&H to use for what protection I might need while working alone in Grizzly country. I have done a lot of this and have used various rifles for this purpose.

The big Ruger was too heavy, poorly balanced, had crappy sights as issued and the safety lever is too small and sharp for my taste. I used it as a spare rifle on a two week horsepack trip the next fall and then sold it.

I replaced it with the first of three Pre-64 Mod. 70s in .375 and used that until I retired from bush work. These are the finest DGR for North American game, IMO. I have also used a Brno 602 and a custom Browning "Safari" FN-LE in .375, I much prefer the 70.

I would go along with Chuck on this, one very seldom actually needs a full-house DGR in bear country, but, when you do, you really do! I prefer the drop mag. extra capacity and find the old 70s to be utterly reliable in the worst conditions. I actually prefer them to my Dakota 76 for this as they are not so tightly fitted and thus less prone to seize up with gunk in the bush.

Given the quality control that exists-or doesn't with current Remchester rifles, I would spend the extra bucks on the custom goodies that Chuck mentions and have the rifle tuned up by a real pro. I have encountered very large Grizzlies at ranges measured in feet while working alone in their habitat; the extra cost of a "tweaked" rifle doesn't seem important at those times, for some reason!

You might do well just to take a look at the cz 550 .375 with the plain old hogs back....despite what people say here the M70 is not the be and end all and they would never convince me otherwise......whats an Echols legend anyway ???...a poor mans Purdy or Holland

I have a Mod. 70 Safari Express. I think it is a very good out of the box rifle. It isn't perfect, but it feeds well every time and shoots better than I can. It comes with a second recoil lug.

For my thumper I have John Ricks building a 404 Jeffery on a MRC Long Action with a Lothar-Walther barrel. It is being built as an iron sight rifle!

Kutena, What do you mean by, "The first of the three pre-64's." The pre-64 model 70 was another option I was looking at. It might be more expensive, but it's got a good reputation.

Does anyone have a picture of Jim Brockman's magnum stock? The picture doesn't appear for me. I was thinking of replacing the stock on a CZ 550, but for the $10 more I can get the field grade American stock and just add cross-bolts and be done. The m70 has about as many yes's as it does no's. The cz has less votes, but no complaints. I'm about as stumped as when I started.

Sevens

If you give the cz a run I think you will be pleasantly suprised. I now have five of them and none give feeding problems and they all shoot good (or as good as I can shoot them) and I am not one for muckingabout with different loads I choose my bullet I want to use load it to safe level and sight it in. With my cz .375 I just had it bedded in Devcon, I do not feel it needs added extra crossbolts in this calibre, but I suppose they certainly coul not hurt.

Do you think it would be hard to locate a cz-550 American safari magnum in field grade (or any grade) in 375? What does it cost for an ebony for-end and cross bolts to be installed? What about a barrel band? The quality of the m70 just doesn't impress me. A gun should be ready for whatever task you intend to use it for strait out of the box. Wish winchester would bring back the pre-64, no "improvements", no changing out for cheaper parts, just the same old parts as the original.
Sevens

Sevens,

All I had done to my cz .375 was to have it bedded in Devcon, I did not add a cross bolt or barrel band to it as it does not kick enough that the swivel in the forend even digs into your hand.

After that I purchased a cz 550 in .458 winnie and had it reamed out to .458 lott, I had 2 extra cross bolts added and I also had a barrel band put on as well, the job cost me $600AUS. The rifle was beeded in Devcon as well.

The couple of m70's I looked at in the store I thought where totally shitouse, the only reason I would get an m70 would be if I decided I wanted a stainless synthetic .375 which cz do not offer and Ruger do not have in .375 H&H. There where machining marks and plenty of pot metal all round.....you will get people telling you that you need to buy a m70 and then send it off to renown smith and throw $6000.00 at it and thats all well and good but it is un-neccesary...they can drum it up any way they want, but if you want to spend 6k on a rifle then it ought to be a double or a deposit on a Purdy or Holland or something obscure which requires heaps of gunsmithing

Just get your cz checked over for feeding etc, and add any little bits you want and you will be set.

If the 375 H&H doesn't need cross bolts, then I will not bother to have them installed. If glass bedding is all I need, then that's all I'll do. The barrel band would be added for the same reason an ebony for-end tip would be, it looks nice and classic. I like the classic mauser look.

I have not seen a cz-550 in a store, so I dont know much about them. I have seen the ruger and m70. The ruger looked nice, but nothing really blew my skirt up. I do like the look of the cz American stock and the factory pachmayr decelerator pad. That alone is a plus to me. The double square bridge reciever and 5 round magazine really impresses me. I think that may be the one I'll get. Now, how hard is it to find a CZ-550 American in 375 with the field grade wood? (If it was the fancy that's okay) Thanks.
Sevens

Seven,

I am inAus mate so we get stuff about 2 years after you guys get it so for us at the moment it is hogs back or hogs back, but for me the hogs back fits fine and feels and points great, but each to there own.

Gun tests magazine did a write up on the Win M-70 some time ago....in .375 H&H safari rifle and they was very unkind to the gun.....as a matter of fact they made the M-70 seem like the worst gun in the world.....

I specifically remember they criticized it for serious feeding trouble.

Sevens

Check out AHR for a semi-custom CZ550. AHR

AHR is speciallized in CZ550s - their walnut stock for the CZ550 magnum is nice - I have a laminated on my 416 Rigby.

They can customize whatever you want.
My suggestion:

- standard CZ550 in 375H&H
- AHR Stock (about $800 installed ? - not sure because mine came semi-inletted)
- 3-position safety $300 installed
- AHR or Talley scope rings ($95 - $136)

Should end up below $2.000 when finished without scope.

Good luck!

Franz

I received a limited edition "Big 5" .375 from my wife as a gift. Beautiful rifle. Really nice wood. Feeds perfectly. Crisp trigger. Worst shooting rifle I've ever seen. Couldn't get on target with the scope. Took it to the shop that is normally considered the top local smith and is also a Winchester warranty center. They said the problem was the Tally base was too high so they ground the rear base down. I was skeptical but took it back. Got it on target but found it shooting patterns not groups no matter what combination of powder or bullet I tried. Pulled the scope off to see how the iron sights shot. At 50 yards I couldn't get higher than 5 inches low. My rifle is now at the factory and I'm curious to the outcome. I told the gunsmith that my expectation is it be replaced.



Jeff

DayDreamer,

I have talked to AHR about their laminated stocks. They look nice, but what's wrong with the factory American stock? I figure that I'll get the field grade, have the stock bedded and take it hunting. If the stock should crack one day, then I'll get a new one. If I got the hogsback stock, then I would replace it with the AHR stock, but for a few bucks more I can get the American stock. (If I can find one)

Sevens

My initial post refered to the three Pre-64 Mod. 70s in .375H&H that I have owned, I only have one now. I also have two factory actions for the H&H cartridges which I will probably have rifles built on, someday.

I have handled and shot British bolt rifles from all of the big name makers and I have yet to see one that is in the same class as the rifles built by top American makers such as Echols. I have owned firearms by William Powell and George Gibbs and quite frankly, I think that English firearms are over-priced and their bolt rifles are mediocre.

You can find a nice Pre-64 Mod. 70 in .375H&H, glassbed it, put Talley's with Brockman's rear ghost ring sight and two scopes in lever rings and replace the front sight for a reasonable price.This will be an extremely useful rifle anywhere and far more practical than a British rifle. I spent 40 yrs. in the remote, wilderness areas of B.C., working alone and I base my opinions on that experience.

I might add that I know an African P.H. from Kenya who lives here in Vancouver, B.C. and I have handled and shot his Holland and Cogswell .375s; he was always trying to buy my 70s to use in Africa and that speaks for itself.I like older Brno-CZ rifles, do not like the ZKK series after owning five of them and have mixed feelings about the new 550 series.

You will not be disappointed in an old Model 70 in .375, if you choose to get one.

Sevens

Can't commend on the CZ American stock, nothing wrong with it from my side.

Just wanted to point out the options offered from AHR with the additional benefit of having done the tuning while getting the stock.

The three piece laminated is very nice - if I had seen the quality of the wood before laminating - I might have left it un-cut - it is nicely figured.
But you have to look very close to see it is three pieces and not a standard stock in one piece.

Franz