Hi all-

I have a stainless Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt. I've wrung out that cartridge pretty well, and I'm thinking of moving to a 454. Would it be possible to simply rechamber my existing cylinder for the longer case length? I'm sure I have the room to spare, as I can load up 300 gr bullets in the Colt case and still have plenty of room to spare in front. Easily the 0.1" case length increase for the Casull. I won't be shooting anything heavier than 300 gr bullets, anyway, so I figure this is my 'largest round' case, and if that works, everything else below it will work as well.

My question concerns safety. I know the 454 operates at much higher pressures than even my hot 45 loads. Many of the custom 454's around are based on the Bisley frame, so the pistol itself I see no problems with. Will the standard 6-shot cylinder handle the Casull if it is simply rechambered? I really like the pistol as I have it set up now. It's got a solid cylinder (non-fluted - just some roll marks), so I'm hoping this will be doable.

Any thoughts appreciated!
maxman

Gunblast.com has a review and pics of the gun, if that helps out at all: http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_Stainless_Bisley.htm

You might want to ask someone like Gary Reeder (www.reedercustomguns.com) about this. He really is an expert on Ruger conversions.
My guess is he would advise against using the original cylinder.

Not safe!!! The Bisley 45 colt is good to 35 kpsi, the 454 Casull generates 55-60 kpsi. If you want a 454 on the bisley, it will require the fitting of an oversize 5 shot cylinder.

There have been instances of folks with 5 shooter 45 colts, ie high pressure rounds inadvertantly shooting their loads in a 6 shooter gun, and the cylinder blew, and took out the top strap in the process.

I'm not sure that I buy the high pressure difference when talking strictly 45 Colt loads. Of course there is a difference between the SAA type revolvers and the new models by Ruger, but the load books don't make any distinction between 5- and 6-shot Rugers. I have never seen any published magic loads for 5-shot revolvers in 45 Colt that are not safe in a modern 6-shot cylinders from Ruger. A hot Colt load is a hot Colt load, and none of them are safe outside of a modern gun, like the Bisley or Vaquero. I can see one of these blowing up a cylinder on a SAA easily.

If I wanted to put that much pressure inside of a 45 Colt case - to be in danger of blowing up the standard cylinder in my Bisley, I would certainly opt for a bigger cartridge rather than push something so far over book values. Cartridges have design limits that can be stretched a bit sometimes, but all things will fail at some point.

The Casull is on a whole new pressure level, yet Ruger makes it work in a 6-shot cylinder for the SRH. Larger frame, granted, but I haven't measured the cylinder wall thickness of the two to make any direct comparison.

Not to start an argument or anything... Let's change this to another question: Is is possible to fit a 454 cylinder into a standard Bisley without altering the frame? If one were to get a custom 5-shot cylinder made up, can you then still use the original 45 Colt cylinder for reduced power loads? It would be much better than trying to load down the 454 case. I can't see why the cylinder length would have to be different - so you might be able to have a convertible when it's all said and done.

I'll be the first to admit that pistol smithing is not my strong point, so any input is great.
maxman

I had a 5-shot 45 Colt and a 454, both Bisleys by David Clements. His guns are superb, but I found flaws in the concept. Here's what I learned:

1. The REAL data for a 5-shot 45 Colt comes with the gun--it isn't published because morons would put their guns and themselves into orbit with it. It differs profoundly from what's in the books.

2. Max-power loads require WW296 or H110, both of which eat bores. 2400 is great for "light" loads, which can still run with 44 Magnum factory loads. You don't see the erosion with 2400, but you don't see the speed, either.

3. You have to be sure you want that much power. There isn't much that 300 grs. at 1,200 won't do, and you can get that with a stock 44 or 45. If you need more, you probably need a lot more, like 416 Rigby more.

4. I was a superb pistol shot before I got a hot 45 Colt. I killed deer and amazed beautiful women with my handguns. A few hundred 330 gr. bullets at 1,400 fps (about 100 fps below max, by the way) gave me a flinch that I'm still working to get rid of.

5. Internal dimensions are more important than external ones. Most factory 45 Colt chambers are still cut to black powder specs and are grossly oversized. That's fine at 16k PSI, and it lets Cowboy Action Shooters use badly-made reloads with ease. But those chambers do not provide the support the case needs to work past about 30k PSI, and the Casull you're thinking of goes 55k in full loads. Modern 45 Colt brass is strong, but it does have limits.

6. HEAVY bullets--325's and 350's--are the reason for the 5-shot 45 Colt. They have long cylinders so long bullets can stick far outside the case and leave more room for powder. SPEED--past 1,500 fps--is the reason for the 454. If you want that, buy a FA revolver--resale is better than a custom 454 Bisley.

7. People who don't own a 454 and who have never shot one are very free with advice on how to load for them. They would never tell you to use 308 data in a 30-06, but will happily tell you to use 45 Colt data in a 454. Ignore them.

If I were to do it over again and money were no object, I'd have Mr. Clements build a stainless 6-shot 45 Colt with tight chambers and an over-diameter cylinder. I'd have him make it stock length, so I could shoot jacketed bullets and plain old cast SWC's. (Beartooth, the premium cast bullet maker, has a 6-month wait right now, so these "lesser" bullets have a definite place in a gun you'll shoot a lot.) I'd have him line bore the chambers and Taylor Throat the 5.5" barrel. I'd load 255 gr. bullets to 1,000 for general use and deer hunting, 300 gr. bullets to 1,200 fps for elk, and 350's about that fast for armored vehicles, invading aliens and if I were to go fishing in brown bear country. I'd also get a lanyard loop because guns don't float. If money were an object, and it always is, I'd get a stainless Ruger Bisley 44, have the trigger tuned, duplicate the first two loads listed above, and carry a rifle for everything else.

To answer your question, if you could get a 454 case in a stock Bisley cylinder, the chambers are still too big to support the case safely.

Don't let me talk you out of hotrodding your 45 Colt. It's amazes me that this old warhorse will run with the 44 Magnum, and it's a lot of fun to get it up there. Just don't get yourself in trouble. Hope this helps, Okie John.

I almost forgot: the articles on John Linebaugh's website are must-read items for people like us. They're all good, but you really want "Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Potential." Also check sixgunner.com for articles by Paco Kelly and Jim Taylor. These guys took up where Elmer Keith left off. They know what sixguns can and can't do, and they can get you there and back safely. To see some of the most beautiful sixguns ever built, see the Bowen Classic Arms website.

Keep us posted, Okie John.

Okie john-

The chamber dimensions are the critical issue - you are correct in that a standard 45 Colt chamber is much oversized. I just mic'd mine and they are much larger in diameter than the specs for the 454 chamber. I was looking at length alone and forgot about how tight those chambers need to be for pressure like that.

I agree - if I have to choose, I would pick 6 hot Colt chambers over 5 Casull chambers for hunting. I was looking for more speed out of 255 to 300 grain bullets for longer range shooting. This is why I was considering the 454. I don't need the 325 to 350 gr bullets here in MN. Right now, it shoots 255 gr cast bullets so nicely, I'd hate to do anything to it and mess it up. Even the 300 gr XTP Mags work really well. Maybe I'll just keep it as is.

Odd you should mention the 416 Rigby - that's my next rifle purchase. mmmmmm....Rigby

I have read all the stuff on the web sites you mentioned - it's what inspired me to go with the 45 Colt over the 44 Mag in the first place. The 45 is certainly a very versatile cartridge. There's something satisfying about using an old round to stomp on all the modern hotshots. Guess that's why I like my 45-70 so much too. Come to think of it, the 416 Rigby is no spring chicken either, dating from 1910 or 1911 I think. Maybe older can be better! If it was good then, it's probably good now. Do you think I'm living in the past?

Thanks for all the feedback! You guys have a great week. maxman

If you want a high velocity long range sixgun round, then by all means get a 454 casull, because it is without peers in regards to providing high velocity and flat trajectory from a sixgun. I'd also suggest getting a Freedom Arms 83 over converting a bisley, you'll have approximately the same $ invested, but a much better return on the FA gun.

I still think you didn't catch the issue with re-chambering a 6 shooter 45 colt, it isn't the sloppy dimensions that won't allow hot, ie 45-55 kpsi loads in the cylinder, it is the lack of steel supporting such pressure.

Finally, if you want more gun, get a 480, it offers more then the 45, but at shootable levels of recoil. I've shot plenty of 454's, 475's and 500's, but find their level of recoil unshootable, the 480 is at a threshold for me, just as shootable as a 44 or 45, but launching 400 gr @ 1200 fps.

No one has brought it up, but another reason to go for the 5 shooter is that the bolt notches fall between the cylinders, Unlike the 6 shooters.

If you take the cost of a Ruger, and add on what it would cost you to do a .454 conversion on it, or even a hot .45 Colt conversion, you'd be better off with a Freedom Arms. They're built like Swiss Bank Vaults. It's pretty easy to find one lightly used in .454 for under $1000. Then if you desire, you can send it back to the factory to have a .45 Colt cylinder made for it.

Regards,
Scott