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another thing I have always wondered about is whether its possible to retemper gun springs that have worn out from long use, or just to make them stronger than they are. If so, how is it done. | ||
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I have tried to re-temper springs that have gone soft after years of work many times and they always simply crush or break. I have asked several people in the heat treatment industry about this and they simply give me the bovine stare and tell me that it can't be done. It seems that once springs wear out, the lattice that holds the steel molecules together has simply become torn and the only way it can be restructured is with a remelt and restructure of the steel. Rod When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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A properly designed and made spring should not need retempering ! Do you replace the valve springs in your cars engine ?? Steel and other metals don't have molecules and no molecular bonds. They have metallic bonds Springs may have external or internal cracks which makes retempering impossible ! Buy a better quality spring . | |||
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Or keep them out of a fire | |||
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Huh? I must have been sleeping when they taught that chapter... | |||
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No Mete is correct. Steel is an alloy and the bonds formed with the different element to make the steel never form a chemical bond i.e. covalent or ionic. Steel is formed by Fe, C, & other alloying elements. None of those alloys can exist outside a solid crystalline structure. What you are thinking of is like water H20 a covalent bond, Steel is like bread, Flour, water and yeast, all the ingedients are there but they are not bonded at the molecular level. Remember the grain structure of steel, you are looking at the individual crystals of the element if you magnify the surface high enough. To expand on mete's expenation. Nothing mechanical can happen to change a springs ability to hold a temper, A spring can however be exposed to chemicals that leach out the alloying elements and change it properties. highly corrosive environments. And thats about the limit of my 7th grade chemistry education www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I have installed thousands of high end and low end springs into molds, dies and fixtures in nearly 30 years Springs wear out.....it's just that simple Most reputable manufacturers list cycle counts for life expectancy ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Thanks Ted! | |||
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Something must happen on a molecular basis that causes some kind of chemical or physical change to something? | |||
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Without getting into a silly scientific discussion about how the "GOO" that makes up steel is held together. The way it was always explained to me by people who were in, or should have been in the know: Steel is like a lattice fence or a fabric. As the steel is bent and stressed back and forth, some of the threads in the fabric, or sticks in the fence slowly fatigue and eventually break. As this happens the overall part fatigues more and more until it gets to a point where it has lost all of its structural integrity. At that point it no longer has any strength and it either bends permanently or breaks under the load. There really is no way to fix this after it happens. It's actual physical damage. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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It is well known that a coilspring that has lost strength, can be stretched, and then baked in an oven at 275 - 300 deg C(527-572 F)for an hour. That is basiccaly what the spring mfg Companys does after coiling the spring. In popular language the spring relaxces in its current shape, in stead of beeing full of counterdirected tentions. | |||
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Ted, You are still right. If they don't change in value, why do they get changed? | |||
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Normally they break after about 1/2 million cycles As far as stretch and cook in an oven? I won't even bother with that one.....sorry Over the course of my career I have heat treated, tempered and even anealed a lot of steel Oil, water and air hardening You cannot add strength to a tired spring without a total re-heat and quench then draw Even then I'd bet it's turned into an entirely different monster by then and I wouldn't trust it ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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After talking this over with a long time friend and fellow toolmaker we came up with a couple simple statements You get one good chance to heat treat and draw optimal results After that things degrade as carbon gets cooked out Yes things can be re heat treated Spring steel.....I'd stay away from personally ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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If one can find them it is always better to replace them with a new one in stead of dinking around with a old one. IMHO | |||
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If a spring has collapsed or bent, it probably wasn't much of a spring in the first place. Re-hardening and re-tempering might work out in the case of a flat or V spring but I would be inclined to just make another one. Regards, Bill. | |||
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Have you ever tried it, or are you just guessing. I have used the tecknique on more than 10.000 firingpin springs on m96 to gain extra strength when shortening the strokelength. Maybe you are right, but in all the cases it stopped those rifles form clicking.Actually they stil Works 25 years later. But maybe the tecknique is so old that it has forgotten why it woun't work | |||
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Don't care to debate why I will say with 100% surety that I will never re-heat treat a spring ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Differences in steel aside Stretching a spring doesn't give it more strength it actually reduces it. Springs get their spring rate from the size of the wire and the number of coils when talking about coil springs So stretching one will only give you more preload room not a higher spring rate. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Brownells sells a complete spring set, all 4 springs for a Mauser 98 for $10.29. Most other gun springs are just as cheep. It would be a dark day in hell when I would piss around for an hour trying to reclaim a $3 spring. I suppose it might be cost effective in a third world country where you can pay unskilled labor $1.00 per hour but, that sort of thinking put's you out of business really fast here in Canada where labor is so expensive. It's just a typical case of a nickle holding up a fawkin dollar. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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I assume we are talking about leaf springs; not coil; why would anyone want to fix a coil spring. Leaf springs, OTOH, are different. I now have a 1816 Springfield in my shop right now with a weak main spring; of course I am going to try and re-heat treat it. It can be done. With replacements selling for upwards of $50, it has to be tried. | |||
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Like I said there is nothing mechanical that can untemper a spring, not destroy is ability to respond to heat treat, They can be cycled to many time to induce fatigue, cracks, and breakage. Re heat treating works once maybe twice after that you have lost to much carbon to make a good spring. Problem is why did the spring fail in the first place nine out of ten it was not cycling. more likely heat, corrosion. Usually it's out of spec material or heat treat, How much attention should one pay to the quality of material used for a $7 spring?? was the material certed?? and how good is the QC?? It's all simple economics. And Spearchucker $1 and hour in a third world country is good money, It's usually like $5 a day www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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If steel is like bread, why is it so hard to make a decent egg salad sandwich with steel toast? | |||
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