I have a Ruger M77 (tang saftey) in 250 Savage that was given to me at the age of 5. It was my first rifle, and I took my very first deer with it at age 7. Obviously this rifle has a great deal of sentimental value to me, and I will never sell it.

Here is my dilemma....

The rifle originally had a full-length mannlicher stock. The stock obviously did not fit a 5 year old, and Dad did not want to cut the stock down. So, he found a used replacement stock (not a mannlicher) at a local pawn shop, and cut it down to the right length for my small frame at the time. I used the rifle in the aftermarket stock until I was about 12 or 13 years old, and have not used it since (I am 24 years old now).

In the aftermarket stock, the gun shot decent groups (1" to 1.5"). But recently I put the rifle back into its original mannlicher stock...and took it out a few weeks ago to see how it shot. I was pretty disappointed with the groups, which were 4" to 6" at 100 yards. I really want to start using this gun again, mostly for nostalgic reasons....but I refuse to hunt with a gun that doesn't shoot under 2".

Do any of you have experience with the Ruger mannlicher rifles? I've been told that Rugers are very sensitive to fore-tip pressure (especially on the mannlichers). The gentleman that gave me the rifle did a glass-bedding job on it, but it does not look all that great....so I'm guessing that might have something to do with the inaccuracy.

How can I make this rifle more accurate in this stock?

Thanks.

Try a O ring or shim under barrel end cap, muzzle end. Or a shim midpoint on barrel up pressure. I owned a 308 RSI that shot well, had a spare stock that was warped did not shoot well in warped stock.

Does your stock fit well with no tension, or high or lo spots?

Try moving your front rest back under the floorplate. Any upward pressure on the forend will affect accuracy. I'll second the "O" ring, if moving back does not help.

3 things.

1. Just because it liked a load before doesn't mean that it likes it now. It's all about harmonics, so experment with loads before you go crazy.

2. as suggested you can move the pressure point up and down the barrel, this should do the trick.

3. Not sure who bedded it or how they did it, as there are several different methods. Best bet is not to mess with receiver bedding until you have exhausted the other 2.

Full stocked guns are the devil to get to shoot accurratly. But they are wonderful to carry and use.

This is part of the wonder that is them.

All good info guys....and I will tinker with the o-ring idea, and changing barrel pressure position.

Unfortunately, I do not have the option of experimenting with different loads. I do not reload at this point, and there is only one load manufactured in the entire U.S. for 250 Savage.

I will try a few things and see how it goes.

You don't reload?

Epic fail!

Here are some reasons you should reload.

1. It will get you shooting more.

2. It won't save you money, but you will build better ammunition and understand your rifle more.

3. This 1 load asskicking contest you have with the 250/3000 Savage could be solved by having every .257 Bullet on the planet available to you.

4. It's fairly technical, but a hell of a lot of fun. Be smart and you'll be safe, do stupid things like having too many variables (powder types, primers, bullets, distractors sitting out on the reloading bench) and you'll figure out a way to die or mess up a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
All good info guys....and I will tinker with the o-ring idea, and changing barrel pressure position.

Unfortunately, I do not have the option of experimenting with different loads. I do not reload at this point, and there is only one load manufactured in the entire U.S. for 250 Savage.

I will try a few things and see how it goes.

If you are shooting it from a bench rest put your hand under the forend so you can feel how much pressure your are putting on it with your face.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
You don't reload?

Epic fail!

Here are some reasons you should reload.

1. It will get you shooting more.

2. It won't save you money, but you will build better ammunition and understand your rifle more.

3. This 1 load asskicking contest you have with the 250/3000 Savage could be solved by having every .257 Bullet on the planet available to you.

4. It's fairly technical, but a hell of a lot of fun. Be smart and you'll be safe, do stupid things like having too many variables (powder types, primers, bullets, distractors sitting out on the reloading bench) and you'll figure out a way to die or mess up a rifle.

Haha....congratulations on being the 1,000th AR member to tell me why I should reload. I'm not saying I will never do it....but I won't be doing it anytime soon.

I have no desire WHATSOEVER to reload my own ammo. I like shooting, I don't like reloading.

I have the same opinion about vehicles. I don't know much about engines, and I don't have any desire to work on them. I just want my damn truck to run....that's it. I don't want to work on it, or tinker with the engine, or do my own maintenance. If I never had to open the hood of my truck again, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit. Haha.

And just to be clear.....this gun is NOT a 250/3000. It is the original 250 Savage (similar ballistics to a .243).

I have already found a guy in Dallas that will load 100 gr. Barnes Tipped TSX for me....but I'm not going to do that until I get this thing shooting a little better. It is NOT the ammo at this point....it's the stock.

Actually the 250 Savage cartridge was called the 250/3000 by Savage as it was the first cartridge to go faster than 3000 FPS.

If you handloaded you could work out your harmonics issues on that alone.

Everything matters!

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
Actually the 250 Savage cartridge was called the 250/3000 by Savage as it was the first cartridge to go faster than 3000 FPS.

Oh okay....my mistake. I thought the 250/3000 was a wildcat of some kind.

I am 37, but rifle nuts that are over 60 only seem to remember it as the 250/3000.

If those are your trophies pictured, then obviously not handloading hasn't been much of a handicap!

I have many customers that don't handload.
It ain't for everyone.
Then again, I think some prefer loading to actually shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
If those are your trophies pictured, then obviously not handloading hasn't been much of a handicap!

I have many customers that don't handload.
It ain't for everyone.
Then again, I think some prefer loading to actually shooting.

Yes sir....all those are mine. I much prefer to hunt and shoot, than to reload.

Just out of curiosity, if you have never reloaded how do you know you might not really enjoy it?

And, it is often the fastest, cheapest, and easiest way to solve gun inaccuracy problems.

Not saying you should do it...whether you do or not doesn''t make 1-cent of difference in my life.

Just saying it's kind of like rhubarb pie...may sound awful but with a bunch of strawberries thrown in can really be delicious. But one would never know if they didn't first take a piece and try it.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Just out of curiosity, if you have never reloaded how do you know you might not really enjoy it?

And, it is often the fastest, cheapest, and easiest way to solve gun inaccuracy problems.

Not saying you should do it...whether you do or not doesn''t make 1-cent of difference in my life.

Just saying it's kind of like rhubarb pie...may sound awful but with a bunch of strawberries thrown in can really be delicious. But one would never know if they didn't first take a piece and try it.

I didn't say that I've never reloaded.....I have. And I honestly do not enjoy it. Just as I do not enjoy working on engines of any kind...

You know at 24 I hated it, but I did it because it solved problems like yours with the 250 Savage that I couldn't figure out a work around for.

I still find it tedious if too much has to be done at once.

I am not anal retentive enough to kill myself on every detail, but my ammunition is good enough to shoot 1000 yard F-Class matches with and I do ok.

Craig Boddington in his book Accurate Reloading talks about a Mannlicher stocked rifle he owned. Would not shoot at all, but he put a couple of business cards under the barrel about 1/2 way along, immediatley became a 1" shooter.

I do hunt a little.

Just a little!

To return to the original question, the very first thing I'd do with that rifle is to clean it as thoroughly as possible, to include the electrolysis method if available.

I know, I know, I'm sure that you've already cleaned it. But please do yourself a favor and run a loose patch coated with Sweet's or something similar down the bore and leave the bore coated for a few hours. Remaining fouling will be blue-green and soft, easy to spot and remove.

Yes, the 250 Savage is merely the old 250-3000 with a new name. The original name derived from the fact that, as already stated, the old loading pushed the 87-gr bullet at a claimed 3000 fps. IIRC it's a Newton design.
Regards, Joe

Yeah it did go a little silly above....

ES.

FWIW,

My son was in Korea for a while teaching English. Seems the Koreans do not have the word "similar". So Joel brought me back a tee shirt that had the epitaph on the front "Same Same" and on the back "but different"

Over the years and over 100 centerfire rifles I've encountered "similar" problems. Not having a barrel absolutely cleaned down to the metal can cause bullets to wander from their intended path. If you don't have access to a borescope, as said before here on this thread, a product that shows the indication of copper fouling can go a long way toward showing one whether he is down to bare metal or not.

Best

GWB

From age 7 to age 12?
Used 5 years by a non-reloader.
Maybe 3 or 4 boxes of ammo.
It may be fouled- but not shot enough to be broken in.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
From age 7 to age 12?
Used 5 years by a non-reloader.
Maybe 3 or 4 boxes of ammo.
It may be fouled- but not shot enough to be broken in.

Well....you are somewhat correct, in that I did not shoot more than perhaps 150-200 rounds through the gun (definitely more than 3 or 4 boxes though). However, the gun was used when it was given to me, and the owner was (and still is) a MAJOR reloading nut. I don't know how many rounds were fired through it before I got it, but I can guarantee you it was at least several hundred.

On the other hand, I personally do not buy into the notion that all guns need to be shot a certain amount in order to be "broken in". I own lots of rifles, none of which I've ever "broken in"....and most shoot sub-moa. The rifle I started using at age 13 (Browning A-Bolt .300 WSM) was never "broken in".....and has shot sub-moa with everything I've fed it since the first day I shot it (5 different varieties of ammo I believe). I would say it's been fired maybe 300-400 times over the last 11 years, and I've taken at least 20-30 game animals with it. It is my "go to" rifle when I need a rifle that I know is accurate and can take down anything I might encounter in the areas I hunt.

Sometimes I think the concept of "breaking in" a rifle is over-rated. I'm not shooting in any competitions, I just want this rifle to shoot 2" or better at 100 yards.

FWIW,

I don't do barrel break in either. One hundred or so strokes down a barrel with a bronze bursh coated with a JB bore paste/Kroil Mix, clean and a couple patches of Kroil back through the bore and I'm good to go.

GWB

Breaking in a barrel "properly" is bullshit.

Shoot it and clean out the carbon when you are done.

Glad to see I'm not the only one...

New-barrel 'break in' is sometimes overrated, but sometimes necessary depending upon the internal condition. To make a sweeping statement is more than somewhat disingenuous, IOW it's wrong in many cases.

A new cut-rifled barrel WILL be somewhat rough inside if it hasn't been lapped after rifling. A new chamber/throat/leade WILL be somewhat rough on the edges of the rifling until the miniscule wire edges are removed by either shooting, cleaning or other means. All barrels WILL have rifling that's slightly irregular in places.

Sometimes this affects accuracy, other times not.

I personally make it a practice to scrub a new chamber's leade/throat with fine steel wool, to remove or at least smooth the fine wire edges resulting from chambering.

If this practice horrifies you, please consider the fact that many if not most smiths use crocus cloth to polish the chamber. A moment's comparison on a piece of blued steel will soon show that the crocus cloth is A LOT more abrasive than the steel wool!

Have also gotten splendid results from fire-lapping when done correctly.

As always, YMMV.
Regards, Joe

If the mannlicher stock was stored for a while without being on the rifle it may have warped enough to cause accuracy problems.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
I do hunt a little.

Dude, enough with the pitures already! You are hogging Eland Slayer's thread...

Seriously though, cool photos.

FWIW, I have two full-stock CZ's. The 6.5x55 is one of my most accurate rifles, so they can be accurate.

I'd check for high spots and stock to barrel interference spots.

Good luck.

FWIW, Boddington's advice was -- try shimming the middle of the barrel with full stock rifles first. ["Make It Accurate", pp. 147-148]

I totally agree with that. Often light barrels, such as found on full stock rifles, respond to a lot of up pressure, the theory being if that if vibration is hurting them, stop all of it. Enough shimming in the middle will push them up hard enough to take the nose pressure completely out of the picture. This generally won't work with a tip that encircles the barrel to tir it in place. On the Ruger, I think it is a good bet that a lot of center pressure will help.

HI
I have a Manlicher schoenauer that I stocked and found that Locktite at the muzzle cap tightened groups considerably.
Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
From age 7 to age 12?
Used 5 years by a non-reloader.
Maybe 3 or 4 boxes of ammo.
It may be fouled- but not shot enough to be broken in.

Well....you are somewhat correct, in that I did not shoot more than perhaps 150-200 rounds through the gun (definitely more than 3 or 4 boxes though). However, the gun was used when it was given to me, and the owner was (and still is) a MAJOR reloading nut. I don't know how many rounds were fired through it before I got it, but I can guarantee you it was at least several hundred.

On the other hand, I personally do not buy into the notion that all guns need to be shot a certain amount in order to be "broken in". I own lots of rifles, none of which I've ever "broken in"....and most shoot sub-moa. The rifle I started using at age 13 (Browning A-Bolt .300 WSM) was never "broken in".....and has shot sub-moa with everything I've fed it since the first day I shot it (5 different varieties of ammo I believe). I would say it's been fired maybe 300-400 times over the last 11 years, and I've taken at least 20-30 game animals with it. It is my "go to" rifle when I need a rifle that I know is accurate and can take down anything I might encounter in the areas I hunt.

Sometimes I think the concept of "breaking in" a rifle is over-rated. I'm not shooting in any competitions, I just want this rifle to shoot 2" or better at 100 yards.

Your anecdotal observations mean little compared to shooters that own and reload for 30 to 50 different rounds, in some cases for multiple rifles. If you do not reload and you have not messed with 50 to 100 barrels of all vintages and conditions from new to badly corroded and worn, your experience is very limited.
It is well known that most of the high quality barrels are lapped at the end of the manufacturing processes. This process makes the lines in the surface texture smoother and the bore more uniform. It functions in a way even breaking in does not. You are right. In your world you may never be able to tell if a barrel needs breaking in because you do it very slowly without recognizing it.
The number of animals taken means little in terms of rounds expended. If you only shoot to kill things then you probably do not need to reload. However, reloading is one of the foremost things you can do to learn about your rifles.

You could experiment with a 1" long pad of business card in the midpoint of the barrel channel, and a wrap of electrical tape around the muzzle, keeping the forend tip from contact on the muzzle. Direct contact at the muzzle with a hard surface is bad. Also, do you cool the barrel between shots? My skinny barrel Mannlicher style Mauser walks the shots left after the first two or three. Also if there's a barrel band, try different tightness of the band, or pad the band with electrical tape.