Does anyone have a pattern for the Lee Speed butt stock? I need some made, or borrow the pattern. I have the wood.
I know they are made in Australia, but that is like, far.

I am familiar with, and very fond of these lovely rifles, including restocking them.

The stock in your photo is not an original "Lee Speed" butt. Nor is it a faithful replica of one. It appears that someone had a crack at doing one themselves, or else they tried their skills out on a machined stock but then lost the lines (something I have seen done many times, so that is also likely).

Lee Speed factory stocks were almost never exactly symmetrical - most were fairly well done originally but they vary a lot. Copy any old one and unless the boogers are corrected the job will show them loud and clear, plus any errors of the duplicators and/or operators throw in on top. To do it really well "re-dux" pattern stocks need to be made, not just copy any old Lee Speed. Or, make the gauges from a fine original (less errors) and do it well from the block by hand. On top of that, bear in mind that these rifles handle SO well, that they tended to get hunted hard and the wood that survives is mostly heavily worn.

Compared to even the factory BSA/LSA inlets, many of the "Lee Speed" replica inlets I've seen come off duplicators look like bomb craters, but in all fairness so do many efforts from the block. BSA had decent "inside work" that puts many stock makers to shame (not all of course). It's also been my strong experience that not many stockers understand the procedure for letting Lee Speed metal into the stock, and as a result come up short of matching the quality of BSA factory efforts. It's not rocket science. The Poms did them in bulk, but they learned how to do them well. The actions have a double draft, and the bottom metal must be inlet a certain way, and in correct order.

It is very, very hard to get a plumb Lee Speed pattern here in Oz, but not impossible. Most examples I've encountered are worn and/or pretty ordinary. Geoff Slee's pattern was really pretty bloody average, a copy ripped 1:1 off an old BSA stock that had typical various issues. That particular factory stock wasn't a good example to begin with - but at the time it was probably the only pattern in the world (?). At the end of the day Geoff was a very fine stocker, and he had the ability to make sure his machined sets worked well in the hands of a capable stocker so what left his hands was better than the pattern it was cut from. I went down the deep Lee Speed pattern "rabbit hole" repeatedly for roughly 20 years, and at the end of that lot my "re-dux" patterns are something I am very happy with. Other than stocks cut from my own custom Lee Enfield patterns, I've machined a good load of Lee-Speed re-dux sets, ditto military stuff. I almost never take an order for machined stocks nowadays, due to a variety of realities.

It was really only Slee and myself that had patterns, and that I'm aware, since Geoff died any patterns have come direct from myself. I'm not sure why nobody has developed a set of patterns outside this. Considering the growing desirability these rifle have had for the last 15-20 years, I have always though it odd that (seemingly) nobody in the US has patterns for the "Lee Speed" sporting rifle variants. I've never heard of anyone having them over there. For decades now, boat loads of fine British guns and rifles have left countries like AU, Africa, India, and wound up in the hands of buyers in the US. I suppose this also applies to BSA/LSA etc sporting Lee Enfield rifles. North America would quite likely be the easiest place in the world to make it happen, or at least as easy as anywhere else. Canada might be a market also, if the scene isn't getting choked hard there.

By the way, Lee Speed is really a misnomer applied as badly or worse as KAR 98K etc. Much less is commonly known about these BSA/LSA etc sporting rifles, so I just ignore it and let them run with it.

These stocks appear dead simple, but I feel they are are also quite difficult to do a decent job on, at least speaking of bolt-action level jobs including take-downs, extended tangs, greener safeties, DST's and the like. Other than many sidelock double rifles or shotguns and some other designs like MacNaughtons etc, etc which are on another level of difficulty. The reason is simply that the action has double draft angles, and the bottom metal needs a unique approach. On other bolt actions commonly done, even when the work bill is more extensive, stockers are dealing with one draft angle (almost never two at once). It is quite difficult to inlet these gap free (i.e. better than BSA etc). Mostly folk chop out the inside work like a bomb crater ignoring the drafts, but instead shoot to try and make the top of the inlet kiss the wood (normally failing in that, too).

Making "Lee Speed" stocks to suit ex-military actions: The socket walls are much, much thicker on a military action c.f. a BSA sporter (or one re-badged with another makers name), and LSA are often a bit thinner again. While a replacement stock can be made thicker at the head of the grip, the rifle will never, ever feel the same "in the hands" if it retains those thick socket walls. There are some exceptions to military action wall thickness. E.g. LSA scrubbed plenty down thinner.

LSA forends are much different to BSA forends - plump, deep and long, different cross sectional shape. BSA did several different forends over the years, both in length and profile (and also bulk w.r.t. chambering). Exactly which variation is desired ought to be the first question to be answered.

Density of the walnut used is vital to how the balance and handling of the finished rifle pans out. Start with walnut that is too heavy and it's very tough getting the mass down to where it should be, and balance can suffer. Choose the right blank and make it easy. Ditto barrel profiles. Should be blindingly obvious, but they are very common mistakes to see down here IME. I feel Lee Enfield sporters, like some single shot rifles, have even less room for error in this regard than M70's, 98's etc.

A good original or well done tribute rifle is a real surprise packet to hunt with. But a really good custom stocked Lee Enfield kills a Lee Speed stone cold dead in my opinion. I think these rifles deserve far more attention than they get, but that's fashion eh.

Juglansregia, is this correct?

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/lee-speed

Bobster,

It's a good bit of coverage, but there are some inaccuracies (as I see them) in the article.

1) Enfield rifled barrels came out on both military and sporting variants of the Lee action before the SMLE was introduced.

2) His opening statement that the Lee Speed rifle was the sporting variant of the battle rifle is not correct. Why??? Rifles marked with the Lee Speed Patent were not just sporting models like we are talking about here, but encompassed various sporting models and militia/privateer/officers commercial models made available for private purchase ie outside of an official military contract to a Govt. The reality is that there was a very great number of rifles made to various military specifications (models) that bore the Lee Speed Patents marking, yet sold commercially (outside of govt military contract production).

The distinction is simple, yet often confused.

I suppose I should also note that, with regard to the names in the patent, JP LEE is the main man (main designer), but JJ SPEEDS involvement in the design (improvements) is somewhat less and therefore regarded as a little contentious by some.

3) After the patents expired, such rifles were not marked with the Lee Speed patents, sporting pattern models or otherwise. The rifles were otherwise the same, specification and model variants notwithstanding. Some later BSA sporters were of course built on CLLE and SMLE receivers.

4)That I know of, BSA never used the term "Lee Speed Patents" in advertising literature. I have never seen an LSA-produced rifle so marked, that I can recall. Other "makers" retailed rifles, including most if not all of the big UK names, but they were probably mostly BSA's "shot & regulated" by that maker at best, with minor mods being quite rare. Rifles built from scratch by such makers on BSA-supplied actions may have been done, but I've never seen one. Perhaps LSA's were also retailed in the same fashion, but BSA production was far more prolific.

5) The Lee is rather more delicate? Okay - but by what measure?? What is the relevance in relation to these rifles? Is it even an important consideration?????

That it cannot be converted to .500 Jeffery or whatever is kinda pointless - the action was never intended for such. The action went through hell and beyond in many wars and proved anything but delicate in battle or private service and stood very proud indeed. It ran right alongside Mauser-actioned rifles of the enemy and arguably out-performed them. The action is most certainly not delicate, nor prone to wear or failure when used within it's intended parameters. I'm as big a Mauser fan as anyone, by the way.

My own take on it is that the moniker applied to these rifles as being a Lee Speed is incorrect. It is a modern "pop culture" term used to identify them nowadays, yet it does not denote one particular model of rifle at all. It's only use was relatively early on except to denote commercial production as opposed to military production, and only while the patents were in force. Production of commercial models continued after this date. Some collectors don't regard these un-marked rifles as the real deal, which to me is a fine example of vanity. However, it is such a prevalent misnomer that we appear stuck with it.

The rest of Digs article is great. The main point he seemed to want to make is that the rifles are indeed fine, and under-valued compared to Mauser-actioned variants in the same calibre class. It's a very valid point, and it's grand that someone of his stature has made it.

When it comes to "Lee Speed" machined stock sets, a lot of people with non-sporting Lee-Speed marked rifles seek to turn them into Lee Speed sporters by addition of such wood sets. Sometimes, people interested in buying are fooled into thinking these are original sporters - something I never wanted to get into. Then there are those who have an ex-military action (thicker socket walls etc) that seek to re-create a Lee Speed. Normally this is done as a tribute to these original sporters, largely because they can be difficult to find in good condition. Finally and most importantly, the wood sets can (given enough skill) be used to restore an original rifle with buggered wood, exactly to original specification. These things ought to be pretty self explanatory, but because there is so much mis-information abounding when it comes to these rifles, if you supply wood sets you get wound up in that to some extent. I have long been wary who I sell these wood sets to, for a variety of reasons, but getting involved in fakes built to be passed off as originals is not something I'd ever intentionally do. In light of that sort of thing becoming a cottage industry, I largely withdrew from making Lee Speed sets. Lets just say I came across some people in the trade who proved shy on scruples. On top of that, they are not the easiest action to stock to a high standard, either from the block or from a quality machining. I note that nearly every time, when a "stocker" unfamiliar with these action has trouble stocking them, it's a knee-jerk reaction to blame the machining and the bloke who did it. Yet the same machinings work just tickety-boo for me. Every time. I've explained the intricacies, they all nod with confidence but rarely have I seen one done well. It gets to the point where a bloke is wasting his time, and precious walnut, getting involved in such antics.

I'm down with the flu and hope what I've written above is okay. I admit I've forgotten a lot of what I once knew about these rifles, and I have yet to meet anyone who is a full bottle on them. I don't consider myself an expert on them, I'm just somewhat familiar with them.

Ok, that is all a lot to read; my stock came from Australia and I don't know who made it. I like and all I want to know is, can I get the pattern to make more. Appears the answer is no.
I do not care what you call it; Enfield stock, on a 1899 BSA sporter.

I feel it is unlikely to be of any real benefit to me to sell my Lee Speed patterns while I am still doing custom work. I've tried to help others into them in the past, and in one instance it wound up a very sorry affair for me. I would be extremely reluctant go there again unless I knew the person very well.

As I mentioned, I expect it would be (comparatively) dead easy to buy or borrow an example in the US and make a pattern from it, just like Geoff Slee did around 35 years ago. Getting an exceptional pattern so easily and cheaply is going to be far less likely, though you might get lucky (buy lottery tickets the day that happens, if it ever does).

Our local technical college has a machine tool department that can 3D scan anything and reproduce it on CNC equipment. Perhaps this could be done on the stock to create a pattern. They created a 3d printed copy of a nylon gun part for me and did an excellent job, drop-in fit. They specialize in doing one-off prototypes for industry.


SIMT (SE institute of mfg and tech)
Florence,SC 29501
Patrick Baska - CAD designer
(843)413-2750
patrick.baska@simt.com

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, that is all a lot to read; my stock came from Australia and I don't know who made it. I like and all I want to know is, can I get the pattern to make more. Appears the answer is no.
I do not care what you call it; Enfield stock, on a 1899 BSA sporter.

How much does that cost? And not scratch my stock.

When I had my part scanned and prototyped, it was 3D printed in Nylon. I got 3 copies, and it was $150. They also quoted me around $100 to scan a stock and provide me with the CNC program. No prototype. That was three years ago. Don't know what they would charge to scan and machine a stick of wood. The scanning procedure does not involve touching the wood(scan is with a laser), so damage risk would be minimal but not impossible. I recommend sending Patrick the pic you posted and a wood prototype quote request. I presume you would provide the wood blank(s).


Bob

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
How much does that cost? And not scratch my stock.

I could sure use a nice set to restock one of my original Lee-Speeds that the wood is beyond redemption on!

It might be beyond redemption for a sporting rifle but could be useful if patched up as a pattern stock.

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
I could sure use a nice set to restock one of my original Lee-Speeds that the wood is beyond redemption on!

Ok, if they CNC the actual stock, then I don't need the patter. Yes, I provide the wood. Lee what does yours look like; send me a picture. I might just have ten of these made from my stock above.

They could also 3D print the stock in polymer to create a pattern if you so wish.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, if they CNC the actual stock, then I don't need the patter. Yes, I provide the wood. Lee what does yours look like; send me a picture. I might just have ten of these made from my stock above.

I gotta go out to the shop and find it, I have a few Lee-Speeds, this one is the one you pulled the barrel from and we had rebored to 375-2 1/2. I think this is the one that someone had replaced the buttstock with the butt of a winchester shotgun which was not quite as bad as it sounds, but it is not even close to being correct. I will dig the others ou and try to send pics, the others are original.

Good.

I just sent a pic of the butts of the L/S's. If you need more or specific area's, tell me. These are all L/S patent marked, top 3 are the same style, l.o.p. etc. and if you notice, they all have identical PG's, which the caps are virtually horizontal to the bottom line of the stock, yours is more like a modern PG and extends noticeably further down. Let me know if you got the picture. Lee.

Steve Herret could copy a pistol grip, don't know if could have done a rifle, but it can be done I was told.