I'm not sure that this is a great thing to put on here on Christmas Eve, but it has been gnawing at me the last week or so. My question is, "Am I the only person who looks at nice firearms as "Big boys toys" and therefore when I trust my treasured projects to a gunsmith I only do it with the thought that I can afford to lose everything in the transaction.

Now, I certainly don't want to make light of the bad experiences that folks like Jorge, Howard and others have experienced. I can't imagine what I would feel like in their shoes, probably more vengeful than them, but at the same time I myself can't imagine being able to afford to lose that much money either. So this would translate into the fact that such a project is not for me. If I wanted such a firearm I would probably look for one already made. Please don't take this as trying to offer advice because it surely is not. I am merely telling what my experience has influenced how I figure when deciding to have a gunsmith do something for me today.

I might add that much of the reason I now feel this way is from past experience with a smith who did wonderful work, some of the best I have seen for a less than famous person in his trade. However his business practices left much to be desired. I won't go into all the details but suffice to say there was no way of getting it back without spending more than it was worth. He has since passed on so I won't bring up his name as it would really serve no purpose. What I lost in dollars and cents value, both parts and money, is a pittance when compared to the horror stories some here have related, but it seemed a lot to me at the time, especially in light of the fact I did nothing wrong. But it did teach me to never go into a project without thinking I could lose everything involved including parts and down payments.

My question is then, does anyone enter into a firearms project with the realization that the whole thing could go south, and you could be out everything permanently, hence you don't commit anymore than you can afford to lose?

quote:

Originally posted by Idared:
My question is then, does anyone enter into a firearms project with the realization that the whole thing could go south, and you could be out everything permanently, hence you don't commit anymore than you can afford to lose?

Realization yes........expectation NO! I can't imagine having such a negative attitude. On the other hand I tend to have an over riding belief that there are no guarantees on anything in life other then death and that its all temporary anyway.

Your point about being able to lose it is well taken though. Any custom gun work is an indulgence in your personal wants and not at all an investment. Pursue at your own risk and with only disposable income.

Matters not wither its a custom rifle, fancy car, painting, antique furniture or whatever. They are all about needs and not wants. Make sure you are in a situation that you are not "hurt" if you lose them. That being said it DOESN'T mean you must just roll over because someone doesn't produce. Everyone should be held accountable.

That is my issue with Hein, Sovern's and those in support of them, and others like them. Everyone must and will be held accountable at some point in time. Some have even go so far as to suggest that because you were looking for a "deal" you deserve what you got! What rubbish.........everyone wants the most value for their money. Does that mean you must just walk away because someone is to busy doing nothing to produce? NOT AT ALL! To suggest otherwise is complete nonsense. Sure you get what you pay for. The key word is get............you should get what you paid for. The fact that its cheaper then what someone else feels it should be is irrelevant. Bottom line is that it only takes time and that is something these "in trouble" gunsmiths have plenty of.

quote:

Originally posted by Idared:


My question is then, does anyone enter into a firearms project with the realization that the whole thing could go south, and you could be out everything permanently, hence you don't commit anymore than you can afford to lose?

This question seems a bit silly to me. I guess I have always figured that all custom rifle projects are more about building something you want, rather than something you need. A custom rifle is not an "investment" in the traditional sense, so you better not commit more than you can afford to loose. 19 out of 20 times you would not be able to get your money out of it anyway.

And it is important to remember that there are no guarantees. You could be robed of your parts and money on the way to to UPS. UPS could loose your stuff and refuse to honor your claim. Your house could be robbed. The airlines could loose your rifle while you are traveling to hunt. The list goes on.

I don't think that you are any more likely to loose rifle while it is at the smith than you are at any other time during the rifles life. It does seem to garner more attention when a smith screws someone because it seem runs counter to what we expect.

I guess it is similar to someone dying during a routine surgery. We say, how could it happen with a doctor present in a room full of medical equipment. But it does happen every day.

The firearm transactions that really do scare me are the ones where someone invests money in a 50k double rifle with the idea that they can used it for a few hunts and sell it in ten years (or sooner if the need arises) for a profit. That usually works unless something happens to the gun in the interim.

[/QUOTE]


The firearm transactions that really do scare me are the ones where someone invests money in a 50k double rifle with the idea that they can used it for a few hunts and sell it in ten years (or sooner if the need arises) for a profit. That usually works unless something happens to the gun in the interim.[/QUOTE]

Jason, the part of that statement I have a problem with is assuming that 10 years from now ANYTHING will be worth more than it is today. This is one of the reasons we have massive foreclosures on houses. Lots of people bought way over their heads, thinking they could flip their house in a few years and cash in.

Having a custom gun built is no different than any other transaction between two parties: person A says I want so and so for X dollars, person B says I can do that for X dollars. Then you stand back and see who is true to their word. It's as simple as that. Do what you said you would do. Be true to your word. If I tell you I'll do something, I expect you to believe that I will do as I said I would. You shouldn't expect anything less.

Is it just me, or does is seem rampant here in the US of A, that too many people are looking for a way to scam their neighbor, cut corners, steal, lie, cheat for their own benefit? Is it getting worse, or am I just getting old and cranky? (Or both!)

Merry Christmas....

MKane160

quote:

Originally posted by Idared:
I'm not sure that this is a great thing to put on here on Christmas Eve, but it has been gnawing at me the last week or so. My question is, "Am I the only person who looks at nice firearms as "Big boys toys" and therefore when I trust my treasured projects to a gunsmith I only do it with the thought that I can afford to lose everything in the transaction.

Now, I certainly don't want to make light of the bad experiences that folks like Jorge, Howard and others have experienced. I can't imagine what I would feel like in their shoes, probably more vengeful than them, but at the same time I myself can't imagine being able to afford to lose that much money either. So this would translate into the fact that such a project is not for me. If I wanted such a firearm I would probably look for one already made. Please don't take this as trying to offer advice because it surely is not. I am merely telling what my experience has influenced how I figure when deciding to have a gunsmith do something for me today.

I might add that much of the reason I now feel this way is from past experience with a smith who did wonderful work, some of the best I have seen for a less than famous person in his trade. However his business practices left much to be desired. I won't go into all the details but suffice to say there was no way of getting it back without spending more than it was worth. He has since passed on so I won't bring up his name as it would really serve no purpose. What I lost in dollars and cents value, both parts and money, is a pittance when compared to the horror stories some here have related, but it seemed a lot to me at the time, especially in light of the fact I did nothing wrong. But it did teach me to never go into a project without thinking I could lose everything involved including parts and down payments.

My question is then, does anyone enter into a firearms project with the realization that the whole thing could go south, and you could be out everything permanently, hence you don't commit anymore than you can afford to lose?

As one who has many customs he BUILT HIMSELF for himself as well as interesting customs and name rifles that would be hard to replace... It would hurt me more to lose one of my favored projects I built for myself than a WR or H&H type rifle, but in the end, it's a risk you take just like walking around in the tall grass with Capes, Lions and such. I started out (initially washing, fetching, and cleaning things) in the mechanical and machine trades as a sports car mechanic helper, then mechanic/machinist, because I had aptitude and a friend's dad had a Lotus and Italians dealership that did race cars. At an early age I saw people spend 300,000 on one or two off race cars + restoration, sometimes more, and then total them back when "vintage sports car racing" was actually RACING instead of track tours and not to far from how people had run the now valuable cars just a few years earlier in SCCA club races. If it's gonna put you out terribly to have something go wrong, don't own it.

Myself, I have a rather liberal insurance rider on top of my general insurance that covers replacement value (picked by me) of my spendy things (as well as those of others to a large degree), on or off my premises, within limitation. Wouldn't cover gunsmith errors, but I rarely farm things out. My largest fear is to be a smith/wrench talked about like the one you apparently had a bad experience with, and I do my best to avoid it and turn away work if I'm uncertain of the outcome, customer, or both. I've never been at a loss as to another smith to point somebody towards if I don't want to do something or am marginally tooled for the task. Same with the odd European cars I still tinker with. I make less money than anybody I know in either trade locally but I also have less headaches and hopefully minimal remorse.

Dunno, I'd go with (this applies to "do I want to own/commision" and on the smith end): If it makes you uncomfortable and will worry you, don't bother with it if you can't get past the nagging fear in the back of your mind. If you decide it's worth the risk, go for it. I was working on a project once with a very good local machinist with better tooling than mine on a custom project and he had a heart attack a month into it. Some things can't be planned for, just accept they might happen or don't buy the nice double/accept the job.

quote:

The firearm transactions that really do scare me are the ones where someone invests money in a 50k double rifle with the idea that they can used it for a few hunts and sell it in ten years (or sooner if the need arises) for a profit. That usually works unless something happens to the gun in the interim.

Jason

What I am trying to say is I won't commit more than I am willing to lose on a firearm under any circumstance. To me whether it be 1K or 50K really is immaterial. I know I can't afford to lose 50K so I will leave the worry to those who can afford to drop that much. My level of accepted loss under such circumstances is considerably less than 50K.

I also don't buy firearms with the thought I will make money on them someday. I figure that someday I will lose all the firearms I now own but I want to decide if at all possible who I will lose them to!!!!

I merely asked the question because I get the distinct feeling some people just assume they will ALWAYS get what they have bargained for in good faith and don't even consider the deal could possibly go south. I admit I always hope things will go as they should but I have learned from experience that isn't always the way things turn out.

Anyway, I hope everyone's deals go well and want to wish everyone Happy Holidays and a bright and prosperous 2010.

I have never entered into a project with the thought that, "This may not work out?".

I am flexible in the out come and time line, but only to a point. I never ask for the impossible and I do not expect miracles.

The best decision I have ever made is to find a trusted gunsmith and together we make projects happen.

A gun project is your responsiblility, too! Do your homework and remember just because you can dream it up doesn't make the project happen. Preparation on your part goes a long way.

One never take a rifle to any smith with doing your home work first. Ask questions ask to see examples of his work. If he can't produce any walk away by saying "well I think I'll put this project on hold". Ask questions of others on this board. If they have heard of them, Good, bad, indifferent?

I personally Do 90% of my own work I ain't boasting I'm just a machinist by trade, Fortunate enough to have the machine tools in the garage collected over the last decade with a healthy addiction to firearms especially ones I can't afford.

Now that said I can't carve wood worth a shit. So stock work is sent out. If it's a project that is low budget then it get a Microfit stock. If it's a high budget project then Bud a Duncan's Guns Works In southern california gets the work.
I'd trust anything to these guys. I've used them for years and had nothing but better then expected craftsmanship. They really believe that nothing goes out the door till it is better then the customer expects or is perfect which ever the case may be. Now I will tell you that they are booked solid year round and they tell you that up front. Took them three months one time to install a scope base on a mauser for me Fixing some holes a previous bubba put in. But they told me it would take longer and came in under their alloted time. So at least they understand how there shop works. Ands with Bud Duncan This man has built fine American doubles in his shop. More of a Shotgun man then a rifle but he can and has built doubles that can compete with the best coming out of Europe. Not in price but definitely in craftsmanship.

You should never fell like you are taking your gun to a hack you should have full confidence in your smith and if you don't then it's time to move on. There are no shortage of Bubba's out there but it's up to us as educated customers to select a good smith.

This has me pondering about the nature of the gunsmithing profession in general.
It sure shouldn't be this way, but life has a way of not being the way it is supposed to be.

This is absolutley nuts, that we even have to have a discusion like this on the forum.

It is absolutely insane to go into a project, thinking you may loose it all. If I had that attitude, I would be done.

As far as Soverns, I considered him a friend, went hunting together, had lots of discussions about life in general. It didn't stop me from having a bad experience. I was trying to help him out, as he was just getting started.

I am about as helpful and generous as most, but there gets to point where enough is enough. Cut your losses and move on. Everyone misjudges character every once in awhile, learn from it and move on.

I know that there is as much art as manufacturing in gunsmithing and the building of custom firearms; however, it is a business. And customers have the right to expect and be delivered the same level of professional service that they would expect from any other business. The smith should expect and receive no more tolerance or leeway than would be given to any other professional or business.

If you do your due diligence carefully you will not be disappointed. I am by nature and by profession a person who researches every detail possible and tries to mitigate any risks associated with my projects for example----next week am going to visit my Smiths who are good friends of mine one who builds my competition rifles and stainless sporters and the other who will have the latest project near completion and it will be at the Guild Show next month. We are going to build a complete rifle in a day next week however, being familiar with all of the components required and having accounts set up with most of the Vendors I get everything from the die blanks to the reamer(s) ordered and delivered.

Many do not want to put the effort in to gain the expertise required to ensure a successful project every time but it starts with knowing what the hell you are talking about and finding the right Smith. People who know me well always ask me to help them plan out their build and to explain why one component manufacturer is chosen over another? Will take the time to explain but also tell some of them that if I were to go into finite detail they would not understand so just trust me. An example would be why to use a 1pc base glued on base over a 2pc glued base on a 338 Lapua Imp on a 8.5 lb rifle.

The takeaway from all of this is if you perform the due diligence properly it will be seldom that you will be disappointed.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
However, I do think that there is a difference.

There are those who somehow get into a bad situation through innocent error, or through their own fault, and are now in a situation where they want to save face but can't. In other words, they are genuninely honest, but have no way to make good on their commitment.

And then, of course, there are those who are genuninely dishonest.

The only difference in that situation is that a truly honest man will come to you and make you aware of the situation seeking ways to make it right.

If a smith I hired to do the work was to come to me trying to make it right I would do anything I could to be cooperative and work with him. But when someone thinks it is more important to try and save face over integrity and lies to me that is a deal breaker.

There is no gray line about the matter - either you are honest in your dealings or you are not. And I have no patience for a crooked individual.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SDhunter:
This has me pondering about the nature of the gunsmithing profession in general.
It sure shouldn't be this way, but life has a way of not being the way it is supposed to be.

This is absolutley nuts, that we even have to have a discusion like this on the forum.



I agree!

338Zmag,

You are correct.

Idared with no personal malice at all your post is just absurd to me.

Why should gunsmithing be any different.

How is this...a custom home is nothing but a big boy toy because there are plenty of serviceable non-custom homes.

So when I comissiom my $2 million custom home, I always budget that I can afford to lose everything.

It's real simple in my mind...several in fact I would say many (and I will explain in a moment) people who call themselves "gunsmiths" have poor customer service skills and poor business practices it is that simple and it is inexcusable.

The reason I say it is many people/"gunsmiths" is...think about it...it is now so pervasive that we have posts like this and many others where a good portion of the folks either defend these poor practices or say that's just the way it is.

I am lucky in that I live about 20 minutes from one of the best shotgun men in the country and even luckier he is as honest and responsible an individual as I could hope to meet. Luckier still to call him my friend.

I am still looking for the same type of individual for my rifle work. I have picked up some names here in the last few years, some are still here and some are gone.

One thing I have noticed about the ones that are gone, they seemed to post here a lot before their demise. Perhaps they spent too much time on the web and not enough time in the shop. Some of you can do it, it would seem others can't.

We don't have a bounty for custom riflemakers here in the northeast but there are some. I would feel uncomfortable investing the money and parts for a full blown with someone I couldn't drive to see in person in a day. I didn't feel that way 10 years ago but unfortunately I do now.

At one time I thought I would be safe with an ACGG member but recent event have shown that's no longer a guarantee.

OTOH, I have developed a few long distance relationships for lesser projects that have worked out, I may try to do some larger projects with these men. But the relationship was built slowly, I didn't head in guns blazing.

They SxS shotgun man I spoke of before, my first visit to him was to have him fix a Stevens 311 that wouldn't cock one barrel. He put down the Holland & Holland he was stocking, took the time to explain what was wrong and said come back next week. When I returned it was repaired for a nominal fee, it was in the rack with the rest of the "Best" guns. It meant a lot to me that I was treated as well for a gun that cost less than the buttpads on the guns he usually works on. Several years later when I decided I wanted a Damascus barreled English gun reproofed, restocked and restored, we worked together and the results what perfect.

Start slow and work up to it. They have to earn my trust and I have to earn theirs.

Tougher than dating...

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by M1Tanker:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
However, I do think that there is a difference.

There are those who somehow get into a bad situation through innocent error, or through their own fault, and are now in a situation where they want to save face but can't. In other words, they are genuninely honest, but have no way to make good on their commitment.

And then, of course, there are those who are genuninely dishonest.

The only difference in that situation is that a truly honest man will come to you and make you aware of the situation seeking ways to make it right.

If a smith I hired to do the work was to come to me trying to make it right I would do anything I could to be cooperative and work with him. But when someone thinks it is more important to try and save face over integrity and lies to me that is a deal breaker.

There is no gray line about the matter - either you are honest in your dealings or you are not. And I have no patience for a crooked individual.

And I think a lot of times the truly honest person does come out and say they are having a problem, and then it becomes a matter of how long the other person is willing to wait until they now say that the other person really isn't honest.

In other words, time, as we all know, is relative. I don't think one could ever say that another is completely dishonest until that other person passes from this earth without making good on their commitments.

Honesty is a lot like love. We all have our ideas about what those things should be based on our own perceptions which are made through our own experiences. But we then turn around and demand those things from others, who have their own perceptions based on their own experiences. And that is where clashes occur.

I think on this Christmas day we should all reflect on whether we ourselves are perfect, at least in light of what we demand of others.

I couldn't disagree more. When someone steals or lies to you and profits, and denies it or is not willing to make it right (as soon as possible), then they are a thief and do not deserve any ones business. None of us are perfect, so we should get robbed every time we make a deal and then accept it? Only a fool would. This is Christmas and I am not perfect, but one shouldn't get robbed and accept it either. Merry Christmas!

Hey Rob, who is your 'smith? I have some English double work and he sounds good. Lee.

Something worth thinking about, longtime master smiths charge premium prices for a reason. Just to throw out a name, Duane's prices are about double what most lesser know or new smiths charge. There is a simple reason he can charge these prices: he has a long(really long) track record of delivering the top quality work.

You can gamble and go with a cheaper smith and you may end up with a rifle comparable to a Weibe at a bargain price. Or you may end up with a non serviceable rifle.

It's your money and your choice.

quote:

"Am I the only person who looks at nice firearms as "Big boys toys" and therefore when I trust my treasured projects to a gunsmith I only do it with the thought that I can afford to lose everything in the transaction.

WOW! Does anybody take their hot rod to the painter willing to accept they may never see it again? I can't imagine feeling that way. It's an enabling approach and I imagine their are a LOT of people who'd welcome your treasured projects sent their way.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Something worth thinking about, longtime master smiths charge premium prices for a reason. Just to throw out a name, Duane's prices are about double what most lesser know or new smiths charge. There is a simple reason he can charge these prices: he has a long(really long) track record of delivering the top quality work.

You can gamble and go with a cheaper smith and you may end up with a rifle comparable to a Weibe at a bargain price. Or you may end up with a non serviceable rifle.

It's your money and your choice.

Virgil Tripp once said to me that "Some of the nicest 1911s I get in for my chroming work (when he still did that for the general public) are built by hobby smiths and unknown people."

Look for examples of a person's work.

And a good smith will turn down a project he isn't capable of doing properly.

quote:

but one shouldn't get robbed and accept it either.

Fair enough.

A question. How long do you go and how much do you spend to try and make the other guy make it right. Do you attempt to put him out of business so that he can never make it right?
Do you have him arrested and thrown in jail so that he can't make it right. Do you plaster his name all over the internet so that nobody wants to do business with him anymore so that he can't make it right.

I don't know the answer to these questions. What are the answers.

22 WRF,

How about equity and reasonable and compensatroy damages...

or shall we just continue to play by the idiocy of bankruptcy law which for all intents in purposes is I can borrow and mismanage my company to my hearts content and they say...oh I am in BK sorry, how about 20 cents on the dollar...but gosh I am so big...evrybody has to just deal with it if any of them want anything but a total loss...

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

but one shouldn't get robbed and accept it either.

Fair enough.

A question. How long do you go and how much do you spend to try and make the other guy make it right. Do you attempt to put him out of business so that he can never make it right?
Do you have him arrested and thrown in jail so that he can't make it right. Do you plaster his name all over the internet so that nobody wants to do business with him anymore so that he can't make it right.

I don't know the answer to these questions. What are the answers.

Some unscrupulous operators have no intention of putting things right, no matter how much leeway you give them.
Pressure can either drive a person to face responsibility or drive them to the wall.
Adapt,evolve,smarten up,... or face extinction.
Some people operate better than others under pressure...some have a drive & freewill of their own and just get things done.

reverse;
How much leeway does/should a smith give a customer who will not or has not payed for work, before selling the customers rig to recoup costs?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

but one shouldn't get robbed and accept it either.

Fair enough.

A question. How long do you go and how much do you spend to try and make the other guy make it right. Do you attempt to put him out of business so that he can never make it right?
Do you have him arrested and thrown in jail so that he can't make it right. Do you plaster his name all over the internet so that nobody wants to do business with him anymore so that he can't make it right.

I don't know the answer to these questions. What are the answers.

If he admits to the problem and is willing to make it right, you agree on a reasonable time to fix the problem. If he messed up the barrel, then whatever is a reasonable time to get a new barrel (the barrel maker can determine that). If he messed up the stock, then whatever is a reasonable time to get a new stock.

The bottom line is that he can't just make excuses. He has to take action. If he doesn't then I would want someone to warn me about such a pathetic operator.

I had a problem with a new shotgun several years ago (before I knew of this forum). It was a Beretta Silver Pigeon V. I won't go into all the details here (I could write a book - pages and pages of emails), but I sent the gun back to Beretta USA due to a factory defect. They agreed to fix it. They fixed problem, but messed up the stock and just sent it back to me. I had to send the gun back three times and they finally said that they can't fix the thing they messed up and offered me to get a estimate to have it fixed somewhere else. That is what I did. It took months and a lot of frustration, which I didn't deserve. I paid them good money to buy their product and got the run around after their gun techs screwed up the gun. If we would not have come to a reasonable settlement, I would have showed everybody the gun and told them how miserable their service is.

I agree people should be responsible for their own actions and that every action has its repercussions, good and bad.

I just believe that all the parties to any situation have a responsibility to see that short term anger doesn't get in the way of the highest long term benefit for all, including the "perps" as well as the "victims".

A couple of times in my life (other than my "Porsche" incident which got so many "hard" men upset), I've been lucky enough to handle that in a way I think may really have helped all.

The first time I was a Sheriff's Deputy. It was my turn to do 3 months running our small County Jail. One of the prisoners was a kid named Jim, doing 90 days for a relatively minor theft.

It soon was obvious Jim was a few points shy of the average bear on the IQ scale....about a 90, I'd guess. It also became obvious that he had learned not to expect much from life and was treated like crap by many. But he really was a thief. Yet in jail he was a really good guy. He had rules, guidance, etc., forced on him, and in return did his damnedest to help out as an unofficial janitor and never be surly. So, I grew to like him in a way.

At the same time, I could see he had probably stolen more than one thing in his 17 years of life. So, as I had some open cases involving thefts, I spent my spare time checking, re-interviewing, etc., to see if he could have done any of them.

Turns out I soon had enough evidence to convict him of grand theft of a diamond ring. So, I had a heart-to-heart with him. Told him what I had, and that within a month I could have him wrapped up and addressed to San Quentin (this job of mine was in California). Then I offered him a deal.

If he would return the ring and sign a confession, I would return the ring to the victim and pocket the confession. Then, if for three years after he got out on his current rap he got in no kind of trouble of any sort with the law, anywhere, I would tear up the confession. I told him I would be his advisor and informal "parole officer" on this diamond ring thing. Anytime he was feeling hopeless, was being badgered by other folk to commit any other crimes of any kind, etc., he was to call me before he did anything and we would talk.

I also assured him that if he screwed up in any way, I would "re-discover" his confession and he could expect at least a couple of years in the "joint". In those days that would have been true, too.

Result was, he came to trust me, accepted the deal, and that's the way it went down. Over those three years he got a high school diploma, a job, a wife, a child, and got in no trouble of any kind. I checked on him for about 5 years after that and he never screwed up again. Plus one for society. A kid who could have been thrown away turned himself around.

The next incident involved another young guy named Jim too. I was living in Oregon by then, on what my wife and I called our "stump farm", raising timber and cows. We were not well off, but were putting each other through college and had two kids of our own. There was a neighbor kid who was about like the first Jim, except maybe 5 points higher on the IQ scale. He had 16 brothers and sisters, and got very little personal attention from his parents...about the same as they gave the family dog.

He sort of grew up like "topsy", whichever way the wind blew. He was failing most of his classes in high school and clearly on his way to being a really-worthless-to-himself woods bum. So I gave him a job plowing my little fields for $1 per hour, taught him to hunt deer, took him fishing, things like that.

One day he offered me a tire on a wheel for $5 (this was in the early 1960s) to use as a spare for my pickup as I didn't have one. I bought it, but made he and his older brother Pat both sign and date a sales receipt for it.

Then a few weeks later I took him elk hunting. When we were about 70 miles from his home, deep in the woods, I stopped the truck and told him to get out. I got out too. Then I asked him where he got the tire and followed by telling him I knew it was stolen. (I didn't, but I sure suspected it.) At first he claimed it was one of his dad's spares. I knew that wasn't true. With 17 kids his mom and dad couldn't afford to sell anything still useful they had managed to get.

So, I told him I was going to leave him out there in the snow in the woods to walk home if he didn't tell me. He finally did.

Sure enough, he and his older brother Pat had stolen it off of someone else's pickup somewhere. Pat had just been drafted to go to 'Nam, and I didn't want Jim to take the whole fall as his brother was the "manipulator" in his family. Sure Jim was a partner in a theft, and that made him a thief. But that wasn't all that was in him to look at for anyone who wanted to see.

So, I struck a deal there in the snow with Jim.

He would start doing his school homework and studying. I would act as his tutor. He WOULD do whatever it took to get better grades and graduate on time from high school. I would see all of his report cards and graded tests. He would continue to work for me and when he graduated I would give him a recommendation for a real job.

Well, once again we got lucky (me and society at large). He brought his grades up to a "B" average, and graduated. We talked over what he'd like to do for a living, and as he had watched me a lot in my little gun shop which I also operated at the time, he had decided he'd like to do something mechanical like that. We scratched our heads a week or so, then came up with the idea he should join the Navy and ask for training as a machinist. He did.

Skip ahead 10 years. I'm living in Canada, running a small branch of the Alberta Government. A colleague who had gone to a conference in Vancouver, B.C. by train tells me he met a guy on the train who knew me and asked him if he'd ever heard of me. The guy was a Machinist's Mate on annual leave from the USN. Name was Jim.

Now skip ahead another almost 30 years. I'm enroute to the hospital in Eugene, Oregon for an angiogram. I stay the night across the street from the hospital in a little upscale Inn which also has a gourmet eating facility attached. I'm having dinner. The maitre-'d (however you spell it) approaches and asks "Are you Mr. xx xxxx?". I say yes and he asks if I ever lived out around Walton, Oregon and knew a kid named Jim and tutored him. I said yes.

He then told me that he was working there while he attended the University of Oregon a block and a half down the street. and He would be graduating in 4 months. His dad, he said, was that Jim. Jim had told him about me all his life, and told him I saved him from poverty and possibly prisonby making him be honest and learn. He called his dad on the spot and handed me the phone.

Since then I've met Jim again. He now lives about 120 miles north of my current home, and is married with 3 kids and a steady job. And, of course, his son is a U of O graduate. Not the first such graduate either. One of his daughters is also a U of O grad. Jim honourably retired from the USN after 30-some years.

What does all this tell me? It tells me that everyone has to be held acountable, but some ways of doing it are better than just pissing on them.

The two Jims had to account for their errors by putting in the work to straighten themselves out and contribute to society rather than rip it off. They did it, and I feel happy for both of them.

It is a better result than I would have ever hoped to get by sending them both to court and possibly prison or jail.

AC

Admirable stories, and I am glad that you handled the situations the way you did because society was spared spending money to try, convict, an incarcerate; and the kids you helped turned out well.

However, you abused the power and position that you had as a deputy sheriff. Law enforcement, at least as far as I am aware, does not have discretion to dismiss an offense. That is the Prosecuting Attorney's job, and even they do not have unfettered discretion.

So what does all of that tell us. That maybe our judicial system is screwed up and needs changing.

Happy New Year.

quote:

So what does all of that tell us. That maybe our judicial system is screwed up and needs changing.

22,
Possibly.....I don't know as I've been fortunate to have spent very little time with the judicial system.....but this I can say...

The entire political system is screwed up and needs changing!

AC's stories also point out what is lost from not having a strong apprentiship culture anymore. When a young man hires on at the bottom and works many years moving up a ladder he not only learns the physical skills but also absorbs some sense of the business by being there every day and living the events while they happen. A whole lot is learned (intentionally or not) by seeing the proprietor interface with his clients. It can even be what NOT to do. He also has a mentor with a vested interest in salvaging him if he begins to falter.


You don't learn that in school and in today's world of instant gratification, few are willing to put in the hours and years at the lower pay before hanging a shingle.

So if security is paramount, you should pay the extra money to have a name-brand shop do the work (as in one with several employees or a single man of proven repute) because the company can hire and fire to get the job done and the man can prioritize or even sub-out when he knows he has to.

If you don't mind the risk you can go the newbie or bargain basement guy but beware that you are dealing with a personality, not a company.

I don't care if the project is only worth $10. It's my ten bucks worth.

AC, your examples tell us what we already know about some folks...they only get their shit together when threatened with prison time or some other onerous penalty.

Do we really need a Boy's Town for irresponsible gunsmiths?

I have a slight confession to make. Most of my original post was a ruse to get some folks to speak up on what their mindset is when they work with a gunsmith. If I have upset some folks, I'm sorry. But, I find some of the answers quite interesting and some others enlightning. One of those I particularly liked is what Forrest said:

quote:

"AC, your examples tell us what we already know about some folks...they only get their shit together when threatened with prison time or some other onerous penalty.

Do we really need a Boy's Town for irresponsible gunsmiths?

To begin with what is true about my original post is, I must admit I haven't lost any money I paid down on a project. I did lose a Mauser 98 action and a used barrel in 257 AI when a smith I used to do business with moved out of state fairly quickly about fifteen years ago. It was at a time in my life when employment had went south and I confess I wasn't thinking a lot about the 100 dollars or so in parts I had at his shop. This smith could have made a phone call to me to let me know he was moving, it wasn't even long distance, but he didn't. When I discovered he was gone and over 500 miles away I called and asked him about the parts. He remarked that he wasn't sure he knew what I was talking about and I knew I was in trouble. I told him to let me know when he found them but I guess he never did find them.

Anyway I wrote it off as a bad experience and told everyone who asked about him to steer clear. I'm sure it cost him more in the long run to "lose" those parts than it cost me. The part that was the most disappointing to me was he was an excellent gunsmith but just lacked the ability to manage a business. Few people who were walk-in customers had problems with him, but doing business with him via long distance was usually anything but a pleasant experience. I am not bitter about this experience but I am more careful because of it today. As I said he has since passed on so I consider the case truly closed.

I'm sure every person who has found themselves in a position with a smith who won't correspond with them thought they had done their homework before getting involved with that smith in the first place. And the worst part is, they probably did to the best of their ability.

It seems we always hear about people like Clayton Nelson, Jack Belk, John Ricks, as well as a couple of people being discussed on this site recently just to name a few. I'm sure there are many lesser known smiths folks are having trouble with we don't even hear about. Some who have problems do seem to eventually get things straightened out but it seems there is always questions that remain about others. But when we ship either money or parts hundreds or even thousands of miles away, with only a telephone or e-mail to correspond with, are we putting ourself at risk to a certain degree. I doubt few people would ship a vehicle even five hundred miles away to be worked on by a person whom they had never met, but others had spoken for, but it seems second nature to have gunwork done that way.

I think tiggertate summed it up about as well as anyone:

quote:

So if security is paramount, you should pay the extra money to have a name-brand shop do the work (as in one with several employees or a single man of proven repute) because the company can hire and fire to get the job done and the man can prioritize or even sub-out when he knows he has to.

If you don't mind the risk you can go the newbie or bargain basement guy but beware that you are dealing with a personality, not a company.

Thankfully there are "single people of proven repute" and we see quite a few on this forum.

Thanks to all who responded. I appreciate it.

Trax,

Your signiture is incorrect. Hartmann was shot down or forced to land on more than one occassion. Reread "The Blond Knight of Germany," his authorized biography.

Regards,

Eric

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
AC

However, you abused the power and position that you had as a deputy sheriff. Law enforcement, at least as far as I am aware, does not have discretion to dismiss an offense. That is the Prosecuting Attorney's job, and even they do not have unfettered discretion.


Today, unfortunately, you would likely be correct.

In rural county America of 60 years ago, it wasn't correct to leave it to the DA. As a matter of fact, when I was hired, the Sheriff took me aside and told me, "In my county we act to keep the peace, not break it. What that means is you will do whatever it takes to settle the problems you meet each day in the best possible way for all concerned. I do not want you writing citations or arresting anyone where you can see a better way to handle the situation. I'll fire you if you just follow the book and don't think and CARE."

As a matter of fact, even the Chicago PD of those days noted 8 different levels BEFORE a matter got to the DA where it could be dropped at the option of the officer acting at each level.

We did other things, too. Like we struck a deal with the students at the local Community College that they could have a dance at one of the ranches outside of town each weekend, and they could have a keg of beer there...no age IDs required or checked. We would provide an off-duty deputy to make sure there were no hassles from outside "party crashers" (individuals, gangs, or other law enforcement agencies).

In exchange, the partiers would have to have a designated driver for each vehicle, and after the dances ended they had to go home. No "dragging the main" or flitting around town disturbing both traffic and other citizens. As I was single, I was the designated Deputy for most of those parties. So, I knew most of the teen kids in the county pretty well. They never reneged on the agreement and neither did we. And we didn't have nearly the trouble with kids the police agencies of today seem to encounter.

So what does all of that tell us. That maybe our judicial system is screwed up and needs changing.

I'm not sure what it tells us, but I SUSPECT it may tell us we need to quit leaving law enforcement (and business ethics enforcement) to others. Maybe we each (and all) need to continually invest some bit of our personal time in leading/shoving the ones who need it in the right direction. It may take a whole community of people to create and maintain a "whole" community of integrity.

At the same time, I think maybe we need to learn that a "stick" approach almost never works alone. Neither does a "carrot" approach. We need to use our judgement as best we can, and apply both stick AND carrot as motivators, even with wayward adults.

I DO recognize that adults should need less carrot and maybe more stick, but that only works as a reminder for those who have already started acting as adults to some degree. For those who haven't, some promised carrot must be dangled in front of them as well.

Happy New Year.

Happy New Year back atcha all.

I have heard the expression "Trust but verify" applied to many situations. I think one can trust too much as well as verify too much.


There is no absolute certainty in life but there are ways of taking reasonable precautions. Check with the BBB, look online and then go judge for yourself. In my past, before I joined the Army, you would have been wrong to trust me. Fortunately, 21 years of being accountable to my peers for our welfare as a group forced me to learn honor and responsibility. If there was no penalty for not being honorable, I may not have had what it takes to change.

Kevin,

LEOs are not required to make arrests. They have tremendous discretion as to what they arrest for and what they do not...at least in CA.

The only mandatory arrest in CA is for domestic violence.

Now is their discretion subject to scrutiny? of course. But the whole concept of developing informants is usually based on not making an arrest when you can and that process of documenting an informant was much less formalized 25+ years ago.

The discretion can also be completely unrelated to developing an informant. If LEOs made every single arrest they could for every single offense they came across the system would fail.

Well spoken, Mike D-

I should also make it clear that when I was a LEO, was in the pre-Miranda days. There were a heck of a lot of things we didn't have to do by way of playing paper or political games in those days.

I'm not saying we should go back to those days completely. Especially in larger cities, but in some rural counties too, there were folks who became LEOs who shouldn't have ever been vested with that kind of power. Probably 5% of the ones I ever knew were badge-happy, rotten arrogant a-holes...and those were their good points!!

Luckily there were none of those on the little 7-man county Sheriff's department I was on. Later when I served on the Menlo PD, there were several of them on that substantially larger force.

One of the other things that was nice in those little rural sheriff's offices was that we got to do the whole job, including making the primary judgement calls. That is, we took the calls, went to and managed the problem scenes, did the investigations, questioned suspects and witnesses, determined whether a crime had occured (and if so, which sections of the CPC were violated), made the arrests, booked the prisoners, conferenced with the DA, took the perps to arraignment, sometimes collected the bail (if any) for the courts, testified at trials, and if they were convicted and sentenced to prison, even transported them there.

I've made a fair number of trips to Vacaville with guys who were going to be assessed there and end up in "Q", on court sentences ranging anywhere from 1-to-5, to the gas chamber. If they were sentenced to the county lock-up, well, we ran that facility every day of the week.

But mainly in the small law enforcement agencies, in areas of low population numbers, the job was one where we depended on the community to help us enforce the law, and they depended on us not to shaft them or their kids, and if necessary provide whatever level of up to and including deadly force was required to help protect them. The object was to teach, as much as to enforce, so that everyone ended up living in as decent a community as we could put together, working together. The Sheriff was elected, so the people held him accountable for the behavior of his Deputies. And being elected made him THE senior leo in his county. Even the FBI had to have his permission to investigate any crime there which hadn't occured on federal property.
(That no longer is so, but it was then.)

It worked, too. I remember several occasions where escapees from Soledad and other prisons passed into our county and were spotted. The citizens got their rifles, their pick-ups, their horses, whatever was required, and actually captured those guys without any leo assistance. I've even had one escapee from Soledad kidnap a farmer's wife and force her to drive him to our Sheriff's Ofice and walk inside with him so he could surrender, alive. He was afraid the mounted citizen's posse he saw carrying deer rifles was going to kill him no questions asked! And no, he wasn't charged with kidnapping. He was doing his damnedest to give up, alive. We didn't see that as a crime. He did get an extra couple or three years for escape.

Now the federal government apparently is not a servant or an assistant to the people, but is their ruler, and the people are treated as their subjects.

Won't get off any further into it, but I agree with Vapodog whole-heartedly on that subject.