I would appreciate your recommendation for a stainless steel one-piece floor plate and trigger guard assembly for a factory M70 Winchester.

You are pretty much limited to going with the Williams. He makes a really nice one currently and the prices are a fraction of what any of the others charge. The good news is that he is supposed to be offering a new style with the release in the bow like the Argie Mausers. He is supposed to have it on line shortly.

Williams makes SS for both pre-64 and the post 64. I have used them and they are a good product. I'm not a real fan of their customer service but the product is good to go.

It seems that Badger also makes these and then I think Dave Kiff is also coming out with one. I'm sure there are others, just too early and not enough coffee yet

I think you will find Kiff is making both Winchester and Remington for the respective manufacturers and for the public.
Butch

I just recieved a Williams steel floor plate assembly. The work is top notch, I am very pleased. No way will I go with the pot metal OEM part again.

Just remember that Dave Kiff's are CNC machined in stainless and CM, no pot metal.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Just remember that Dave Kiff's atr CNC machined in stainless and CM, no pot metal.
Butch

Hey Butch,

Just curious, but is there some reason that when someone mentions our bottom metal, you never miss a beat to making a plug for Dave Kiff?

I think the guy makes great reamers, but I've yet to see any of the bottom metal that you've been mentioning for the last few months.

You mentioned that he had Remington bottom metal that he was making for you and that you would post pictures.....do you have any available?

You mentioned earlier he was making bottom metal for "the respective manufacturers and for the public."
I know he was working with a small-time manufacturer, but I know he's not doing that now. To set the record straight.....he definitely wasn't making the bottom metal for USRAC. That design for USRAC was of our own creation, before Winchester ever thought about a one-piece bottom metal. We actually created the market for them with that product.
Up until we supplied them with the part and idea, they were still using the 3 screw models, which we were supplying the trigger guards to as well. Later we manufactured the floorplate and hinge assemblies for them on their classic sporters and sporter LT's, but they used an aluminum trigger guard, with our floorplate.

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, but no sooner have I posted pictures of our newest line of bottom metal, or someone else has mentioned good things about our products, you're pretty quick to throw in the Dave Kiff line....

I don't mind competition at all......it's good for any business, but I'm curious as to your viewpoint on our products, and why the constant sway away from them?

Again, don't take this as an insult or an attack, just trying to figure out where my customer base is coming from.

Matt,

M1Tanker references a new style with the release in the bow. What is the status of this?

Thanx.

I'm having to push an order out for a manufacturer right now that's consuming our machine time, but once that clears, that's our hottest project.

I have another large customer who will be needing them too, so that going to help all of our smaller customers, by having plenty in inventory.

We're trying like crazy to get our existing parts inventoried to the point that orders can leave the day they are ordered, or at least the next business day. It's not been easy considering we've added two new parts with 4 different finish configurations of each, but we're getting there.

I'll probaby have something for the long-action within about 3 weeks, but I'm buried to pull it off right now.

Sorry it's not sooner, but it's been crazy around here.

Thanks for the response.

Hey Matt,
How do you want me to take it? I don't believe the thread was started asking about Williams bottom metal. It just asked about bottom metal. As soon as mine gets back from coating I will email you a photo. You can post it if you want. I haven't taken the time to figure out how to do it. You are not the only person in the business or the only quality manufacturer out there. I don't believe I have said anything derogatory about your products. I think that you are a little sensitive.
Butch

Like I said, I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers, but wondered if we had done you wrong somehow in the past that I wasn't aware of, or you saw some features that we were lacking in that swayed your decision??

After a couple of threads that started, shortly after my postings, and at least a half-a-dozen posts along the same lines, I figured there must be something I was missing.

I realize that we're not the only folks in the business, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know what my customers, or potential customers are thinking when I'm trying to sell parts.
If there's problems or issues with fit, finishes, or design, I'm all ears.....After all, that's why we've developed our new line of bottom metal..........Listening to what the public wanted and doing our best to deliver.

Matt

the AR crowd is not an easy crowd to please. We all want the best possible parts at the cheapest possible price, and we want them yesterday. And we don't want to pay for shipping and insurance either.

Matt,

I eagerly look forward to the Oberndorf styled M70 bottom metal! I will order a LA stainless as soon as they are ready!

Also, I know you plan on an offering for the M98, and I think that that market is waay under tapped. I've been watching what this stuff goes for on ebay and the prices are ever climbing for stuff that really isn't even that good. I mean the old Mark X stuff is bringing an easy $90-$100 in halfway decent shape.

My apologies for the slight hi-jack.

Bob

Matt,
To make you happy I will stay away from your post. I have made no comments on your products.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Matt,
To make you happy I will stay away from your post. I have made no comments on your products.
Butch

Butch, this is utter BS! No vendor, no matter how good they might be, should be able to stake a claim on the forum where no other vendor can be discussed or its products mentioned. Freedom of ideas and information is what makes this site great.

Matt consider yourself lucky that Saeed provides a site where you can peddle your wares and get feedback from the marketplace. You may not like the message sometimes, but I feel you're out of bounds to even imply that someone should moderate their informative posts just because you feel slighted.

JMHO

re: Butch and Matt-

My own thinking- this isn't a forum for selling products unless someone chooses to do so. I don't think it's in violation of the rules. That said, if someone is going to mention a product they are associated with, be it a gun part, stockmaking or gunsmithing services, etc., having another source mentioned by another member is in bounds.

Some forums, regardless of subject, wouldn't allow what really amounts to unpaid member advertising. As I mentioned, not the case in these forums.

As a bystander, and also, mind you, someone who has sought services, I sometimes, personally, get a little weary of commercial promotion- but as I say, I've paticipated in it myself and was glad it was here at those times.

I've probably stuck my nose in it...

I don't think Matt was telling butch he couldn't write posts however he wanted. It sounded to me like he thought a person might not like his product or service for some reason and wanted to find out why. gosh guys, have a jack and coke and remember "tranquilo amigos".

Is there any company out there planning on making quality products like this for springfields?? I know it is a much smaller market, but damn, that would be so nice. I have three myself that could use something, I know that the magazine box being integral complicates things, but couldn't it be done with enough thickness so that they could be modified for larger than original cartridges?

Man that would be awesome.

sorry to hijack.

Red

quote:

I don't think Matt was telling butch he couldn't write posts however he wanted. It sounded to me like he thought a person might not like his product or service for some reason and wanted to find out why.

Red, that is sort of like (note I didn't say it absolutely is) assuming the thread exists for only one response- as if the Williams product is the only one allowed to be discussed.

I think Matt stated his case plainly, but it does wander into the realm of being criticized for saying what you want to, when you want to, where you want to.

I will go on record saying this.
I have bought several reamers from Dave Kiff. Top notch guy calls me back if he is on the other line, takes as much time as needed to answer all my dumb questions. Stood behind a reamer that the fin broke off of from a problem with the metal, super dude. He will get all my reamer busines.

I bought some form dies from Butch. Super smooth deal, traded a few emails so I knew what I was getting. Took the time to foward a bunch of photos. If he is selling something you need, I would grab it in a heartbeat. Great guy, really knows his stuff about shooting.

Two weeks ago, I bought the new bow release 700 bottom metal in the white,from Williams. Part was in stock, girl was super friendly. Part went out that day, I got it the end of the week as promised. part looks awesome, works real well, oversized just enough that the fit will be perfect.

I wished Dave would put the metal on his site. I am positive if he is making it it is top of the line. I have three more that need replaced. Maybe I will get a few of each.

I think Butch is giving a plug for a buddy's product, not bashing Williams. I never thought that Butch was was trying hurt anyones business, just giving them something else to look at and get the best product for their needs. Butch saying Dave makes kick ass bottom metal is no different in my opinon than Matt saying we now have kick ass bottom metal.

This is a contest that does not need to get started.
Matt get off the puter and get busy on the mod 98 stuff.

butchlambert,

I have looked for Dave Kiff online and have not found him.

Do you have contact information?

Thank you.

Try this: http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/
He has not updated his website to list his bottom metal.
Butch

butch, I wouldn't worry to much about your post as you were answering a question. If you look back at the posts, I am the one that brought up Dave first so I really don't see the point in Matt's post to you.

Thanks, I'm not worried about him. He doesn't help himself. I'm sure his products are fine. I am not a friend of Kiff's, I just like his products and how he handles his business.
Butch

Thanks Butch.

This thread is a good example of how one can say something, but write it down, and it gets interpreted 180 deg. from author's intentions.

I apoligize for my post and can see how it could have been taken the wrong way.

I can't count how many threads have been started on this site with talk about Blackburn or Sunnyhill's bottom metal, and I don't get involved at all on those.

I realized that Kiff is making a similiar product at a similiar price, but wanted to get some input as to why someone would choose ours over his, or vice versa??? That's it....nothing more.

Again, I'm sorry if some of you, especially Butch, took that the wrong way.....It was not my intentions whatsoever.

Apology accepted. I will try not to jump in when your products are mentioned if it can be interperated in the wrong way. I think this forum is for the exchange of information in a civilized way. Nothing said here would keep me from buying your product if it were what I was looking for in quality and price.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:
To set the record straight.....he definitely wasn't making the bottom metal for USRAC. That design for USRAC was of our own creation, before Winchester ever thought about a one-piece bottom metal. We actually created the market for them with that product.
Up until we supplied them with the part and idea, ..........

Is this before Grisel and Dakota produced one piece floormetal? Is it possible that someone at Winchester looked at a Dakota rifle with one pc floormetal and thought huh? I wonder if this would fit our stuff?

I don't have any dates here, but there's very few novel ideas in the gun trade.

I do like the pics Williams has posted in the past showing the forgings he starts with. Whole lot easier than any way I've made them.

We developed our One-Piece Bottom Metal in the spring of 99, which we sent to USRAC, but they didn't contact us about it we started the conversation with them and it went from there.

In 2000 my father and I went to the Shot Show and saw some rifles in Dakota's booth. It was the first time either one of us had seen a trigger guard on a Dakota that was not an Oberndorf-style, but rather a Model 70-style bow. In fact; we had to take a hard look at it in the racks to determine that it wasn't what we were building. Up until then, I had no idea that Dakota built a similar model. As far as we knew, we were the only ones that were building one-piece bottom metal with the model 70-style release system in them.
I have no idea as to when Dakota started using this pattern, but it could have easily been before us, since we'd only been at that style for a year.

I did have a customer about 3 years ago that sent me a one-piece bottom metal back that had been drop-shipped to Dakota for stocking. Apparently, someone there was trying real hard to see how we put them together and ended up totally destroying the part in a vice. I guess they decided to tear it up to see how it works on the penny of their customer. This was of course after they had finished the inletting on the stock. Our customer offered to buy another one and try to recover his money out of Dakota, but we just sent him a replacement. He said that if he got someone there to fess up to destroying the part, he'd send us a check for the money they owed him, but I've yet to hear from him again. At this point, I don't know how it all came down, but at least he had his finished rifle.

Our new design from a one-piece forging could be considered an original I think.....I conjured that up about 4 years ago and I've yet to see or hear of anyone else in the business using that approach. We were able to eliminate 4 setup on our machining processes and eliminate 6 hand operations by going to this system. It has saved us a considerable amount of time for sure, but we've also been passing that savings off to our customers.