This question may not be easily answered, if so, just point me in the right direction.

I have heard of a gun balancing well, and I have heard of a rifle pointing like a good bird gun.
So, how does a person know if a gun is balanced well? Is that easy to define? And what makes a gun point well? I have been more of a benchrest type competitor, so this is a new area for me.
Thanks.

A proper fitting Rifle or shotgun should shoulder smoothly , if equipped with a Scope it should

be the proper distance and Height , Eye Relief and your eyes should be seeing the

entire field of view . Without Hunkering into the cheek piece if it has one , your cheek should just

rest on it naturally . If all things are comfortable the Weapon will fit and follow your eyes .

As for balance that's tricky because as a BR shooter you know about barrel weights compensators

as well as the entire weapons weight .

A great hunting Rifle for example will exhibit all the above desirable properties

in a lighter package , as one needs to carry it in the field .

Balance can be altered too a degree by grip or weight placement . Stock design along with LOP

are two main important factors in proper weapon fitting IMO !. As everything else can be altered

to suit it's owner . Even a thicker or thinner Butt pad can change a stocks handling characteristics

some what . I'll add some people will add on cheek pads others will scamper down or up the length of the stock

to get their cheek right . If a scope comes on a weapon make sure your not mistaking stock or scope placement

for an uncomfortable fit . I personally prefer to have a Weapon without optical sights until I know it fits

me . Then of course depending on what it's used for coupling the correct optical unit and completing that

Rifle . As I don't use optical sights on Shotguns personally .

Picture a Youths Rifle in the hands of an adult , or a fellow who is 5'6" using a custom made stock for a

NBA player chances are it's not going to work !.

The best fitting Bolt rifles I have ever handled are the British Mausers.

If you look at therm closely you will notice that they have very minimal wood, and very short thin fore ends.

The German Mausers made between the Wars handle second best.

American Bolt rifles handle like boat oars, or worse.

I was at the Guild show in Reno last week.
A Bolt Rifle by a German Gunmaker living in Canada [Martini] was one of the best Bolt rifles I have ever handled.

PS His Single Shot Rifle handled the same way.

They feel.... Alive.

"Almost" as good as a fine Double Rifle.

Not to get into semantics, but that "alive" feeling is often associated with lighter weight. Lighter weights, within reason, are NOT your friend for good pointing (with a shotgun) or aiming with a rifle. Obviously you can go too far for sporting use, but almost everyone will shoot better with a bit heavier firearm. OTOH, if you're climbing mountains after sheep or hunting chuckars, then wt becomes more important than it's handling ability.

quote:

I personally prefer to have a Weapon without optical sights until I know it fits

me .

You can't have it both ways using the above receiver scope, it either fits for sights or it fits for scopes. Of course you can compromise and "cheat" a bit on each side of perfect for one or the other. Personally I think sights on modern bolt actions rifles are like putting a rubber inner tube patch kit and an airpump in the trunk of a modern car. They aren't there to be used and just kind of seem dumb.

Gatagordo

The rifles I am talking about are not necessarily lighter in weight, they just have the weight in the right place.

My 450 No2 double rifle has 28" bbls and weighs over 11.5lbs, yet handles perfectly, and feels much lighter.

Even a light rifle can handle badly.

Go to Ralf Martini's web site and look at the stocks on his rifles.

One of ralf Martini's guns.
I am glad it is not mine, as that low comb would give lousy contact with cheek, while looking through that scope.
Beautiful, fantastic craftmanship, yes, but in my eyes obsolete.
Comb can be straight and still handle like a dream.
Gunsmiths need to understand that low scopes can be combined with high open sights and a fairly straight comb, any other combination is pretty mucth useless.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
American Bolt rifles handle like boat oars, or worse.

I am sure our friends in the gunmakers guild are pleased to know.

Im 110% confident Ralf Martini very much understands ideal comb height when its comes to stocking a rifle for O/S & glass.
For all we know the customer may have specified a low comb on that M70 .338-06.
The Martini-Hagn shop clearly can accomodate other preferances.
Ive handled Ralfs H&W Magnum Mausers, and Mr.Hagns single shot actioned rifles in all three action sizes...including T/D switch barrel versions... Their work is superb.

NE 450 No2,
Re: [They feel.... Alive."Almost" as good as a fine Double Rifle..]
Well, they got that covered tooo!!! Hagn SxS .. #1. .. #2. .. #3

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Im 110% confident Ralf Martini very much understands ideal comb height when its comes to stocking a rifle for O/S & glass.

He probably does, but looking at the rifle in Q, there is a height difference between line of sight between scope and OS at close to an inch.
No matter how devine the gunsmith is, an inch off does not make a good handling gun.

This might have been customers spesifications, but it is still not a good soulutionfor a working gun.
BUT I am sure it is superb without the scope, just as fantastic as NE450No2 claims.

I am just surprised that todays gunmakers does not try to make scope and guns with the same line of sight. It will break classic wievs of wht looks "right", but I would rather have a gun that felt right than looked right. Since I am a hunter, I mean. If they are just hanging on the wall, why put on scopes at all?

Bent,
Im also a firm believer in making the O/S & scope line the same if possible. Only then can you have a comb height thats perfect for both. otherwise all else is a compromised ideal stock geometry.
The restrictions that often dont practically allow making scope & opensight line the same, usually revolve around:
- bolt handle or shroud clearance on eyepiece(depending on choice of scope,Handle & shroud)
- objective clearance on barrel.
- QD mounting system height.

I appreciate things low like this( and lower if possible):
But I dont know how you could get a proper QD ring system that low!

Trax, You have it right, glad to see.
My Q is just why gunsmiths do not make more of an effort to influence the customers wish of scope and mounts to go with the guns to make this an functional as well as elegant soulution.
I started a new thread on this subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

One of ralf Martini's guns.
I am glad it is not mine, as that low comb would give lousy contact with cheek, while looking through that scope.
Beautiful, fantastic craftmanship, yes, but in my eyes obsolete.
Comb can be straight and still handle like a dream.
Gunsmiths need to understand that low scopes can be combined with high open sights and a fairly straight comb, any other combination is pretty mucth useless.

Thanks. I needed a good laugh!
------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

Thanks. I needed a good laugh!

OK, nice, so tell me were I am wrong?

A lot depends upon your choice of scope, rifle and mount. And just exactly what your definition of an acceptable QD mount is. Talleys are good but entirely too high for my taste, ditto most claw mounts, I simply don't use 'em. I like side mounts like the G&H but they're a PITA sometimes. The older Weaver bases are often low enough but are unacceptable for most customs. Sakos are perhaps the best of the less-expensive mounts and they return to zero just fine but custom bases must be made for some rifles. Harry Pope used to machine some of his barrels to take the target scope mount directly into cuts in the barrel's top surface for a super-low mounting, but what did he know (grin), he was not only the top barrelmaker in the world but also one of the top shooters of his or any other day.

Please see the other sighting thread on this forum.
Regards, Joe