Jack and Chic,

I regularly window shop at numerous websites that sell used guns. I often see used custom rifles for sale by the following gunsmiths. I was wondering if you knew how many of these gentlemen are still active in gunsmithing. Do you happen to know which ones of these are (were) members of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild ("ACGG")?

1. Al Biesen [I'll answer this one. Al is semi-active. He is in his mid-80's. Al is a member of the ACGG. His son, Roger, who is in his mid-50's, is a gunsmith (I have two of Roger's rifles)].

2. Maurice Ottmar [based solely on the pictures of his rifles I've seen on the internet, these are some very fine rifles].

3. Dale Goens

4. George Bietzinger

5. Duane Wiebe

6. Clayton Nelson.

I picked these six names because they are the ones that appear most often on the used custom rifle pages.

Thank you for any information you may have.

Regards,

Terry

P.S.
I've done internet research on these gentlemen and have found very little background information.

[ 08-12-2002, 06:11: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

TCarr---

Maurice Ottmar was an active member of the ACGG until his death last year (I think. Chic will know).

Dale Goens? I'm not sure. I know Gary Goudy talked him into doing an audio history for the Guild and it is available.

George Bietzinger? I don't know of him.

Duane Weibe is an active, and excellent, gunmaker that is again active in the ACGG. I slobbered all over his take-down Mauser in Reno this year.

Clayton Nelson---oh, Clayton.... Last I heard he had just mailed me money....that was two and half years ago. He was living in the Gunnison, Colo area and doing business under his son, Christian's name. It usually takes a trip to Gunnison and a certain amount of sleuthing to find him.

Jack,

Thank you.

Regards,

Terry

Terry,
Still laughing over the "Oh, Clayton...." from Jack.

Dale Goens is an honorary member of the ACGG. That was given to him in 1996 for his contrubution to the gunmaking trade. I have never met him but all I have ever heard of him was glowing praise. Like Jack I have never heard of George Betzinger.

Maurice died last April from ongoing complicatins from a stroke that he suffered several years before. He was one of the founding members of the guild, as was Al Biesen and I believe our own Jack Belk.

Roger is regular member of the guild. Roger's daughter is a gifted engraver. Regular membership is not just paying your dues and getting your membership card. It involves submitting pieces of your work that have to meet certain requirements or "points" in the case of metalwork and they are then "juried" and voted on by those members at the annual exhibition.

Jan Billeb, is our executive Director and she has a publication called the Directory of Custom Gunmaking Services that lists all the members and their area of expertise. I believe it costs $5. http://www.acgg.org

[ 08-12-2002, 07:56: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Chic,

Thanks for the information.

Regards,

Terry

Terry-
If you don't mind my stepping in here, I'd like to add a couple of comments.

Maurice was a terrific gunmaker and I'd be pleased to own virtually everything I've seen of his.

Duane is a real favorite of mine and I have more of his rifles than I'd like to put into print. He builds high-quality reliable working rifles with great looks.

A major customer of Duane's is in ill health and has been selling a large number (20+) of his rifles. These are probably some of what you're seeing for sale. Almost all of these are lighter calibers and in lightweight configurations, built in the late 70's through the 80's. Most have well-done fluer de lis checkering, which is not my personal preference. A friend in Austin bought one and it shoots very well.

Jack and Chic, tell us more about Clayton Nelson. I saw several examples of his work displayed at a gun show some 20 years ago. It appeared to be some very good work. It was displayed by a young man (maybe his son?). I still have his business card from Kansas I beleive.

Craftsman,
I do not know of his work, having never seen it. I have heard it was very good. Maurice Ottmar was a good friend of mine and worked with him in Oklahoma at Champlain. Most of what I heard about the man I heard from him and I would rather not comment beyond that.

Chic

Thanks Chic. Now that you mention it I think I saw a picture of him in an article about Champlain firearms.

I don't know anything about Clayton Nelson other than the fact that I found one of his rifles at Griffin and Howes website in their used rifles section.

http://www.griffinhowe.com/usedgun-rf.cfm

Alvinmack5

Thanks for the information.

I suppose this rifle builder will remain an enigma.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

September Rifle magazine has an article on Duane Wiebe. {I got this off their website, will now have to go into town and get the magazine}.

Regards,

Terry

T.Carr,

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here and share some sources of information you might want to look for.

The older Gun Digests are a good source for information on custom gun and gunsmiths, and they can easily be found for cheap at used bookstores and gunshows. John Amber had a great interest in custom rifles and routinely wrote about various smiths and featured pictures and descriptions of their work, as well as occasional feature articles by himself or others. (Jack O'Connor wrote a piece on Al Biesen for GD back in about 1958.) The previously mentioned "The Gun Digest Review of Custom Guns" is also good, although being authored largely by Ed Harris it places too much emphasis on some obscure gunsmiths that he knew and a certain .35 Whelen he owned.

Many older books by O'Connor and Jim Carmichel have info on gunsmiths that were active at the time. O'Connor's books are full of Biesen, Milliron, Linden, Owen, etc., while Carmichel's are more likely to have Goens, Brownell, Wiebe, Nelson, Hartley, etc. "The Modern Rifle" is one of Carmichel's that has a couple of chapters on custom rifles, and there's another one whose title escapes me at the moment that is even better. Some of O'Connor's to look for would be "The Hunting Rifle", "The Rifle Book", and "The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns".

I'm surprised that no one seems to know anything about George Bietzinger. He was at one time a stockmaker at Griffin & Howe, and after going out on his own his rifles were shown in many Gun Digests in the late 70's to late 80's. He seems to have worked mostly in the G&H style, including a Marlin 1895 complete with banded ramp front sight, Lyman 48, and G&H double lever detachable sidemount.

Kurt

Having known Clayton Nelson for 30 something years I'll offer a short insight through the quote of a well known high-grade gun dealer.....

He said, "If you find a Nelson rifle you like, BUY IT!!.....never order one."

When I was stationed in Gunnison Colorado, I spent a lot of time at Keith Stegal's shop and later on when Clayton moved to Gunnison I spent some time at his shop. I can say, his work was excellent. However, he had a lot of cash flow problems which resulted in poor delivery. He was sued by a Doctor from Puerto Rico for some sort of fraud. I think that the worst story I have heard about Clayton was from a very close friend in Gunnison whom I served as an intermediary for some very expensive wood. He took one of the blanks (a 1200.00 dollar one) and a pre 64 Win. action to have Clayton build him a custom rifle. After about two years of all kinds of excuses, my friend found out that Clayton had sold his rifle to a wealthy man from Texas. He was entertaining civil action against him. It seems to me that something was worked out. I don't know just what, but I think I will contact my friend and see what happened. My curiosity is up.