Greetings,

I have a Sears/JC Higgins rifle with a Belgium made FN action and I'd like to ask; does anyone KNOW if my action has 60° V threads or does it have square threads?

My dad bought the rifle new in 1956. He and I burned hundreds of corrosive '06 rounds through the barrel before I learned how to use soap and water to clean. I'd like to do something special with this rifle but the above question came up during my initial correspondence with a smith.

Thank you.
Matt

It should have V threads, but the question is are they 55 or 60 degree. A lot of folks just use 60 across the board on Mausers because it works, even though 55 may be what the receiver actually uses. I don't know which the FN action uses, but am sure some one here does.

You'll find commercial FN actions with square threads, it's not uncommon. Everything else same-same except the threads, they were made that way so that the importer could use cheap (at that time, grin) 1903 Springfield barrels.

IMO your greater concern might be to ask just exactly WHY this is of concern to your smith? Any competent smith can cut square threads just as easily as vee ones, emphasis on the 'competent' part, grin.
Regards, Joe

If a "gunsmith" doesn't know what kind of threads a Mauser has, you can bet your a$$ that he wouldn't ever touch ANY firearm of mine.

Thanks to you folks for your responses. I hear what you're saying about the gunsmith/competence thing. We were e-mailing long-distance and my action is still attached to a barrel so he hasn't seen it yet.

I don't know why he asked the question except that he specializes in building very accurate Remington 700s and doesn't know if he has the tooling. I also might not have given him all the information he needed.

What I want to do is have my action blueprinted and a new barrel chambered and installed. Obviously it's a 30-06 size action and I'm thinking about a 260 Remington build. The bigger issue might be getting a short action
round to feed in my rifle. I've never done this before... or had it done.

If I could have found a "for sure answer" to my posted question I would have gone back to this fellow and asked if he would do the job.

I can completely understand different commercial actions having different thread pitches to facilitate putting cheaper barrels on. I believe Sears used a bunch of different barrels for my rifle including High Standard back in 1956. So the only real way to know would be to look at my action.

I appreciate your input and should have put more information in my original post. Given what I posted you folks nailed it in terms of competency questions.

I would still appreciate any insight that would help me to identify and contact a smith that could do a good job on my project. I've had the gun a long time and I would like to do something special.

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
You'll find commercial FN actions with square threads, it's not uncommon. Everything else same-same except the threads, they were made that way so that the importer could use cheap (at that time, grin) 1903 Springfield barrels.

IMO your greater concern might be to ask just exactly WHY this is of concern to your smith? Any competent smith can cut square threads just as easily as vee ones, emphasis on the 'competent' part, grin.
Regards, Joe

While it may be true that FN supplied actions might have been supplied with square threads, it is not true that the FN actions used in the JC Higgins rifles had square threads. They used regular old 55 degree V threads like standard 98's did.

While it seems odd that a Smith might not know what threads a Mauser has, I sure wouldn't conclude that he doesn't know what he's doing without more facts. Living as close as I do to the School of Trades I run into kids there all the time that didn't know what a Mauser was until they took classes. For all we know this guy could make a living doing nothing but rebarreling 700's or similar actions. Many seem to forget that these days there are gun builders that make a living building one type of rifle and one only like all those that specialize in building on the AK or AR platforms.

I think it premature to pronounce him a hack or incompetent without additional facts. Oh wait, this is AR where facts don't mean squat.

quote:

What I want to do is have my action blueprinted and a new barrel chambered and installed. Obviously it's a 30-06 size action and I'm thinking about a 260 Remington build

The various MKX, DAly Rem 798 used the same length Mauser action for both the 243 length and 30-06. There was a spacer added to the rear of the box and shorter follower for the 243. If I had a Fn and wanted a 6.5 caliber I would look to the 6.5x55 6.5x57 etc. Same performance as the 260 but the longer case would not require any mag work and probably feed better.

Wasn't it gibbs or parker hale that used the square threads?
Don

Matt, have someone that knows these JC Higgens rifles examine the inside of the barrel. All that I rebarreled were chrome lined inside the barrel. It may just need a little of JB's compound to bring it back. Should be 55 V 12 tpi, but I always would check the barrel which I removed and grind a threading tool to fit the degrees. I wouldn't spend the extra money to have that FN blue printed.

quote:

I wouldn't spend the extra money to have that FN blue printed.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by LesBrooks:
I wouldn't spend the extra money to have that FN blue printed.

Me too. Any more than the minimum clean-up-face-off of the shoulders would be largely wasted IMO.

Concerning Sears Mausers and square threads, I don't know if there's a truly definitive answer. I HAVE, however, seen more than a few commercial FN donor actions with square threads matching the 1903 profile and dimensions. It's my inference that the original importer/manufacturer sold these 1903-bbled rifles to several different distributors for firms such as Monkey Ward, Sears and others. Coulda been/probably were different specs at different times during the verious sales cycles over the years.

I've built one of these square-thread FNs into a belted magnum with complete satisfaction, FWIW.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Concerning Sears Mausers and square threads, I don't know if there's a truly definitive answer. ...Regards, Joe

It is pretty well documented. All the barrels on the Higgins models 50 & 51 were supplied and installed by High Standard, they were all chrome lined and of the standard V configuration. The later model 51-L used Husqvarna 1600 actions.

I've never personally seen an FN with square threads but I've learned never to say never when it comes to Mausers. Everyone at one time wanted to use up the boatloads of '03 surplus barrels lying around.

Parker Hale at one time had a receiver made up that on the exterior was a mauser 98 clone except for the bolt stop. However, it had square threads and used a 1903 bolt.

If the gunsmith doesn't know the threads on a Higgins I would find another smith. I don't care if he is the M700 God of the world. I would find another smith......

Square threads on an Higgins? Not much chance of that.

BTW, chrome lined barrels are very resistant to corrosion, but I have a Higgins 270 that is very pitted. My guess it that a great deal of misuse can ruin any barrel.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I feel I have a better understanding of how to proceed with my project.

I appreciate that Parker Hales were brought up in this thread because I also own a mid-70s Parker Hale chambered in .270. We purchased it new for about $85 from JCPenney's. The buying price included Redfield rings and a one-piece Redfield base; as well as a no name 4x scope. The rifle shot and still does shoot 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards with factory Green and Yellow 130 grain bullets. The no-name scope hung in for probably 10 years before it began to fog. I can't begin to count the number of wild pigs, sheep, goats, elk, deer and antelope that have fallen to that rifle.

Thanks again!
Matt

Jbrown,
What difference does it make if the smith doesn't know the thread profile? I'm not a smith and I can take an action and produce a great thread and chamber after I have it in my hand.

Butch
My point was that the JC Higgins/FN commercial action is very common. If the smith does not know that the JCH actions had "standard" Mauser threads then he obviously has not worked on many.

Personally I would not want anyone "learning" on my action. There are just too many other smiths who have done enough Mausers to know them inside and out for me to choose a rookie.

If you asked a mechanic about having work done on your ford truck and he asked you if it had an air-cooled engine would you have confidence in his abilities?

Whatever Mr. Brown. You can have the last word.

Customer walked in with a Krag for me to rebarrel. Ever re-barrel a Krag he asked? No... Ever seen a Krag like this one? No... It was a Steyr produced Norwegian 6.5x55. I rebarreled it, put his sights on it, and he shot a 1" group from 100yds with it. I will wager that 85% of people will get the threads wrong. I know the packet on threads I got from the Colorado School of Trades was wrong.

http://myersarms.wordpress.com...rwegian-6-5x55-krag/

Two of my good friends are smiths, excellent smiths. If you asked them right now what pitch a mauser was neither would know.

I would not hesitate to send either of them mauser's to barrel because I know both will send me back excellently barreled rifles.

My point is to all of the above. Knowledge is not a universal sign of aptitude. Ascertaining his ability is more relevant to whether he will construct a safe firearm than individual details. The pitch of a mauser is easily found. I know a dozen machinists that knowing nothing about gunsmithing and handed a mauser action, could chamber you an excellent action. No, "learning" involved. Cognitive reasoning allows an individual to figure out what needs done and if he has the skill to thread and chamber, it will be done.

The Smith knew that some had square threads,
why is that ignorant?. If the customer wanted
to save a buck he could use a pre-threaded barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
The Smith knew that some had square threads,
why is that ignorant?. If the customer wanted
to save a buck he could use a pre-threaded barrel.

This may well be the source of the question. If the smith intended to use a pre-threaded barrel (usually an El Cheapo of some sort, though) then the square threads would prevent that approach.

At least he was knowledgable enough to remember that commercial FNs have 2 different thread profiles. Apparently not everyone knows this....
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
At least he was knowledgable enough to remember that commercial FNs have 2 different thread profiles. Apparently not everyone knows this....
Regards, Joe

JD, I think you are using the term "Commercial" very loosely. Implying that an FN produced sporter could be found with square threads when, in reality, all they did was make the receiver for a US importer who then screwed on 1903 Barrels.

FN supplied actions to scads of retailers, etc. Sears, Monkey Wards, H&R, etc. But those were barreled & stocked by the seller so I wouldn't call them FN Commercials.

I'm aware that FN 98 actions can be found with square threads. I've just never seen one in the flesh. I have a couple of acquaintances that have or have had them.

However, you seem to have forgotten that the Sears JC Higgins branded rifles that used FN made actions had standard V threads.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
At least he was knowledgable enough to remember that commercial FNs have 2 different thread profiles. Apparently not everyone knows this....
Regards, Joe

JD, I think you are using the term "Commercial" very loosely. Implying that an FN produced sporter could be found with square threads when, in reality, all they did was make the receiver for a US importer who then screwed on 1903 Barrels.
I used the lower-case 'c' to differentiate from the FN-produced militaries, not to imply that FN made the entire rifle. That was your own inference, sorry for the confusion.

FN supplied actions to scads of retailers, etc. Sears, Monkey Wards, H&R, etc. But those were barreled & stocked by the seller so I wouldn't call them FN Commercials. I didn't, that was your own inference.

I'm aware that FN 98 actions can be found with square threads. I've just never seen one in the flesh. I have a couple of acquaintances that have or have had them.

However, you seem to have forgotten that the Sears JC Higgins branded rifles that used FN made actions had standard V threads.

I didn't forget because I never 'knew' it in the first place (grin). I'll gladly take your word for it since I don't know the original retailer for the several square-threaded FNs that I've seen. However I'm curious about your apparent certainty that all Sears FN rifles had vee threads, is that a fact that's supported by actual records of some sort?

IMO it might be better for you to say something like "I've never personally seen or heard of any Sears rifles with square threads, nor has anyone I know, and between us we have examined 'X' number of Sears FNs."

I used the term 'Sears' as a catch-all for the several retailers of these rifles because, to me, they are all basically the same. Fit mainly to use only for a donor action and so the other components are generally of no interest to me. Sorry if this caused any misunderstanding.
Regards, Joe

As I said, that the JC Higgins model 50 & 51 were barreled by High Standard is well documented. That High Standard never employed a square thread on those barrels is also well established.

The importer/maker/whatever that contracted FN to make them square thread 98 actions is unknown to me. But being that all these receivers were similarly marked, once a barrel was removed, at a glance all the actions would look the same unless you had a clear view of the receiver threads.

As has been stated, the thread type is of no real consequence, unless you plan to use a pre-threaded barrel.

I think for the sake of those who may be shopping for an FN commercial action it is important to differentiate amongst retailers and not simply call them all Sears. The Sears JC Higgins branded models 50 & 51, Monkey Wards Westernfield, H&R 3XX series Ultra Rifles, and others used the V thread. Since, to me at least, the retailer that sold the square thread variant remains a mystery, the best advice would be to assume that an unaltered factory rifle using a Commercial FN receiver wearing a Springfield barrel is likely to have square threads.


Anyway, I think this horse is pretty well dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
Knowledge is not a universal sign of aptitude. Ascertaining his ability is more relevant to whether he will construct a safe firearm than individual details. .... Cognitive reasoning allows an individual to figure out what needs done and if he has the skill to thread and chamber, it will be done.

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

At least he was knowledgable enough to remember that commercial FNs have 2 different thread profiles.

Joe
The fact that he "knows" this(and sees the need to ask)would scare the heck out of me. How many FN commercial actions had square threads? Maybe one in ten thousand?

My guess is that the smith dosen't know a Mauser from and Enfield

Change of direction on this thread but... If it were mine I would make sure the barrel was well cleaned and that it would not shoot well enough with with good ammo. If it is just the lead some times you can load a little longer than standard and get the rifle to shoot acceptably .

If that didn't work I wold have it Re bored to 35 Whelen and then you would have some thing special. And you would still have that classic rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Butch
My point was that the JC Higgins/FN commercial action is very common. If the smith does not know that the JCH actions had "standard" Mauser threads then he obviously has not worked on many.

Personally I would not want anyone "learning" on my action. There are just too many other smiths who have done enough Mausers to know them inside and out for me to choose a rookie.

If you asked a mechanic about having work done on your ford truck and he asked you if it had an air-cooled engine would you have confidence in his abilities?

Jason
A gunsmith not knowing the thread size would throw a minor red flag to me. But Not knowing the thread size and not being able to cut it are two completely different things.

that's one thing about a Good gunsmith a good machinist a Good mechanic and a good tool maker. We don't have to have worked on it before to figure it out. We just have to be able to figure it out and that is what makes a good Smith GOOD.

Are square threaded Mauser rifles capable of killing horses?

I love AR. Ask a simple question and answers that most know nothing of show up, like the square thread issue. Never heard of it!

I would love to have a square thread action, I would barrel it to something like 35 Whelen and engrave "Square Thread Edition" on the left action rail.

Mauser "experts" argue that either 15 million,
or 40 million Mausers were made. The point is
there is room for a lot of variations. Anyone
that claims to know all about Mausers is either
a fool or a liar.

An interesting thread: Square thread FN

quote:

I have been around the world two times, been to three county fairs, even watched goats mate and this is the darndest thing I ever seen.

I found this on PacNor's list of actions they can fit barrels to:

quote:

Mauser 98

Mauser Smallring

Mauser w/ square threads

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
Mauser "experts" argue that either 15 million,
or 40 million Mausers were made. The point is
there is room for a lot of variations. Anyone
that claims to know all about Mausers is either
a fool or a liar.

Hear, hear!
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
Mauser "experts" argue that either 15 million,
or 40 million Mausers were made. The point is
there is room for a lot of variations. Anyone
that claims to know all about Mausers is either
a fool or a liar.

Ditto