quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I don't know how to say this other than in my own foolish way, but I am really wondering....

What rifle afficianado gives a Tinker's Damn how much the crass dollar value of a rifle has been diminished by making it more useable for the owner?

Who could even suspect they might have the ability to put a valid dollar value on the enjoyment the owner who had the changes made, might have got from the use of the rifle after (and at least partly because of) those changes. God might be able to, but he doesn't post here, to my knowledge.

To even try to value such things in mere dollars really surprises me and causes me to have pangs of pity for those who do.

AC,

Enthusiasts will often spend big dollars on their custom mausers, accepting that they often largely depreciate in monetary value.
The will defend their decision & right to do ,[as it is indeed, their right to do what ever makes them happy].
Obviously the value they place of the pleasure in the building/owning/use of such a custom rifle outweighs the issue of its inevitable monetary devaluation on the used market.
Yet I suspect some of those who do just that, also have issue with someone who chose to modify another unique mauser to their own liking, resulting in its monetary devaluation.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Historical artifacts have nothing to do with a dollar value, their value lies in the fact it, the rifle in this case, is a genuine part of history.

Mausers (and others) have finite numbers, there is a first and there is a last, and dependent on the actual number made some in-between, there is attrition of numbers over time

If every one is altered by the most competent of gun builders or butchered by some back yard hack, soon there will be no original examples left and history will be lost.

In that lies the wrong doing !

C'mon Alf!

How many Mausers have to exist for all time to keep history from being lost? Ultimately only ONE of each variation, I'd guess. And, considering the number of Mauser worshippers who collect them, how apt are we to run out of ALL of them?

I agree with you that it would be a shame to eventually get to the point where there weren't ANY, but I suspect none of us, or our great-great-great-grand kids will live to see that happen. And if we do, never fear, the pictures, written word, etc., will live on.

But for folks to berate someone they don't know at all for diminishing the dollar value of one man-made artifact, which is what was going on, is hardly a reason for anyone to get on their "holier than thou" horse, wouldn't you agree?

That is especially true as we have no knowlewdge of when, or WHY the mods were made.

We can dream that it was done from pure callousness, and no one can proove that dream wrong.

At the same time, we can dream that it was done by a veteran of WWII, to modify a rifle HE brought back, so that his son, badly wounded in Korea or early in The Nam, could go on a last hunt with his father before ill health claimed one or the other of them.

We certainly have no evidence that was the case, BUT we have no evidence it wasn't either.

So, why jump to conclusions (not you, but anyone) and then play childish "pile-on"?

If it was the "help a wounded vet go on a hunt with his dad" scenario or anything like it, I'd say "Historical artifact be damned." Making One's own history through father-son bonding trumps that.

At any rate, I know this is a waste of time. Some of us will NEVER see eye-to-eye on some issues.

And all You purists out there, have a nice day. I wouldn't want worrying about the history not in your hands to sour it for you.

AC

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kcstott:
Trax
You could not possibly fathom how picky i am about the things I build or the rifles I own.
Try stepping into my world of the quality and precision of parts I make.
But I digress, that was not the point I was getting at.

I judge your level of work standards[on mausers],by what I see on your website. HERE.

You pick apart every little detail of someones post like you are some political commentator. To the point of pissing people off.

Yep. I do pick on details. Much the same thing has been done by someone who started this thread about a rifle that was owned & modified by a stranger , but not to the posters liking.

You try to find the slightest of contradiction and exploit it. It's getting old.

Some of the contradictions aren't so slight.

Can't you just get the drift of what someone is saying and quit taking everything as black and white.
People are entitled to have an opinion and they are also entitled to have an opinion that varies. They are also perfectly able to change their mind at anytime. That notion you just don't get.
The nit picking I'm referring to is just that. You are trying to call people out on statements they made and say "No!!! You said this!! but then you said that!! Which is it???"

so its unreasonable to ask people where they exactly stand?
I don't mind if they change their mind [either way] on a stance.
Asking for clarification is not a crime, especially when they are condemning other peoples ideas of whats acceptable.

Some Folks would never Americanize a Kurz receiver, and would consider it sacriledge to do so.
They would prefer to do their best to keep or restore it to original.

In other words they would frown greatly on this modification effort;
A rare Kurz d&t for common Leupolds and with "m70 treatment", aint much better than Weaver on an A/B mauser.
Some might say this Kurz has been defiled, or even Butchered.

Trax
You may use my 1891 as an example of me creating a door stop and admitting to such. It's a POS and everyone knows it. The only reason I'm rebuilding it is it was my first rifle.
It is not anywhere near my best work. I kept in mind what the rifle would be used for and what it's worth to someone else.
At least the rifle on my site are mine though. We would still like to see you holding one of these beautiful rifles without the SCI banner hanging in the background.

That aside Asking someone where they stand exactly on a subject is fine you just have a way of wanting to know every little detail to the Nth degree. Maybe thats just you. but it does come off a little annoying to be nailed down on the subject again and again.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Trax
You may use my 1891 as an example of me creating a door stop and admitting to such. It's a POS and everyone knows it. The only reason I'm rebuilding it is it was my first rifle.
It is not anywhere near my best work. I kept in mind what the rifle would be used for and what it's worth to someone else.
At least the rifle on my site are mine though. We would still like to see you holding one of these beautiful rifles without the SCI banner hanging in the background.

That aside Asking someone where they stand exactly on a subject is fine you just have a way of wanting to know every little detail to the Nth degree. Maybe thats just you. but it does come off a little annoying to be nailed down on the subject again and again.

Where is the SCI banner behind the pre64 and Mauser I posted earlier?

Does this look like an SCI stand to you?....Its not,....but thanks for the compliment...

So are you under the sheet????

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
So are you under the sheet????

NO, I'm holding the camera in order to take the photo...its not rocket science...

where you by any chance in the same class as JD?

Holding the Camera here too:

Trax
Like this


This is me with my Custom Red Rider .177 cal lever action

And no I was not in the same class as JD but he does bring up a good point. How do we know this isn't copy and paste.

I gather that JD and You will never really know. life can be like that.
Im not really concerned about what you two choose to believe or not.

AC:

How many Mausers exist for history not to get lost ? Sporting Mausers? only 200,000 built.

Consider that in African conflicts such as the social turn abouts in places like Mozambique hundreds of these rifles were confiscated and destroyed.

Some years ago a series of photographs were published in Man - Magnum magazine of a heap of rusted destroyed large bore Model A Mausers in Mozambique..... they are lost forever.

Some variants are rare and if they should go or are altered they are gone ! I mean of the original 21, 500 Jeffery Mausers built how many are still around? I know of 9 which are accounted for, the rest are where? or original George Gibbs 505's ?

Whichever way we argue or look at it, a well meaning period incorrect alteration to a historical piece is a dumb move !

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
J.D. Steele
Don't you think it's kinda incriminating that you assume that I was referring to you even though I did not use a last name?


I hope you know that I was just giving you heck. You have more skill than I ever will.

Thanks for the good words, I had actually taken that comment as an attack, glad to know that it was not!

I had just been patting myself on the back 'cause I had managed to stay out of this particular pissing contest, when 'up jumps the devil' or at least it seemed like it to me until you cleared things up (grin).

The devil is still in the details however. Trax, I'll gladly go on record here to say that IMO you are a liar and a troll.

Like you say, it's not rocket science! All you hafta do is get one of your friends to take the photo of you holding your rifle or else set the timer and do it yourself.

I wonder if you really have any friends, though? In your real-life identity I mean, not in this fictitious 'Trax' identity that you've created for yourself on this forum.

Yes, a cowardly troll.
Hugs and kisses, Joe

I'd also like to see some of Trax's rifles since he has such good taste and judgement. Perhaps some of his own creations or even some of his commissions. Or hell, just those he bought from somebody else.

quote:

How many Mausers exist for history not to get lost ? Sporting Mausers? only 200,000 built.

Consider that in African conflicts such as the social turn abouts in places like Mozambique hundreds of these rifles were confiscated and destroyed.

Some years ago a series of photographs were published in Man - Magnum magazine of a heap of rusted destroyed large bore Model A Mausers in Mozambique..... they are lost forever.

Some variants are rare and if they should go or are altered they are gone ! I mean of the original 21, 500 Jeffery Mausers built how many are still around? I know of 9 which are accounted for, the rest are where? or original George Gibbs 505's ?

Whichever way we argue or look at it, a well meaning period incorrect alteration to a historical piece is a dumb move !

I didn't think it looked butchered at all, same quality work as my ACGG rifles ......just kidding couldn't resist.

I understand what y'all are saying, but a little perspective.

Historical piece.......that's a fn stretch. A friggin commercial rifle with 200,000 examples built and you're bitching about one modified decades ago? Shit that's what 3-4 times the numbers of Pre War Mod 70s.

Funny thing is if you look at a lot of the custom rifles people drool over on this site, everyone applauds the use of an A or B action- jolly good show.... a beautiful custom rifle on a fine action <- more like it.....and the owners are proud of their use of said action for their custom.........

But I do understand and agree it is not original and no matter how you cut it a restored rifle is still not an original and never will be so yes, you do have a point. But it's just a rifle.

Gee according to this thread I should feel guilty for using a second month production 3 digit (#10x) Pre War Mod 70 as a donor.....fuck that.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
[QUOTE]

Historical piece.......that's a fn stretch. A friggin commercial rifle with 200,000 examples built

Total production is only 2/3's of that number.

That oughtta be good for another two pages of useless argument!

Wait around a few years and things will get better on the supply side. Whether 200,000 or 2/3's of that, it is a lot of "things" when it comes to collecting.

I have seen a lot of changes in the gun market recently. The world of good quality double shotguns has turned on it's ear. Most of the more desireable or rare models, along with most of the older common models had almost disappeared from the market and quadrupled in price. There is now a glut, and you can hardley sell one. Shops that used to rarely have inventory won't now take consignments. The downturn in the economy is responsible. Over the next twenty years, as the baby boomers who have afforded and had an interest in period guns die off, their estates will flood the markets with guns which have been held for years. Based on my general observations of young shooters and their interests, there may be a demand for 10% of them. I suspect there will be plenty to go around for the few who care.

Has anyone, repeat ANYONE, on this thread ever had any personal contact with Trax?

It occurred to me that most of us know at least a little bit about the other posters here, if only because of mutual friends/acquaintances. For instance AFAIK I've never met Terry but we know some of the same folks and therefore I'm fairly confident that he IS who he says he is.

Not so with Trax!

Has anyone here ever had any dealings with Trax on a one-on-one basis?
Regards, Joe

Wow Michael, the stock repair on that rifle is amazing, the checkering looks better after the repair than some stocks I've seen that were never broken Whoever does the work for you keep them secret, they're an ace up your sleeve man.

Red

Believe me I do understand, but with respect to this case.......the mods were not done yesterday, they were done decades ago and even without knowing exactly when the mods were done, is it not in essence what we are currently doing today. And are not the mods in essence "period" to when they were performed?

I guess my point is choose your battles. Yeah to do that to an original Rigby, etc I'd agree..........y'all are the experts though.

Now what about hindsite: I'm sure at the time that was what the owner wanted, just as we choose today with our customs.......ya know someone eventually is gonna say "look at what those assholes did in the early 2000s...................."

What is your stance on restorations though?

I bought 3 Pre Wars restored to "new" condition purely for the actions- paid $900 a piece. I don't get any joy out of the fact they are "restored" at all as I know they ain't original. Just don't feel right. 2 have been used as donors, one is intact- to me it is still just an action as I know it's a restoration.

Unlike the restorations, said Mauser has been "altered/modified." If one were to "modify" the already "altered" rifle back to original, in essence you have made a "replica" have you not- what I think or do two negs indeed make a positive? (Talk about splitting hairs....)

Now there is where I do feel your pain. No matter what, it'll never be the same, even restored.

For me knowing it was a replica outweighs the positives of a beautiful restoration. For others I'm sure the joy of restoring it back to original outshines any neg thoughts.

But again, in this case I for one would not get my panties all in a knot.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
I'd also like to see some of Trax's rifles since he has such good taste and judgement. Perhaps some of his own creations or even some of his commissions. Or hell, just those he bought from somebody else.

I don't think he has any. The guy reminds me a lot of Scott S (and all his various personnas).