I am thinking about giving one of the formulas in Angiers book a try and would welcome any input.

It is Aa 22. Iron free with one metallic salt;

Bismuth oxychloride
Hydrocloric acid
Alcohol 90*
Water

Anyone here tried this one or have any suggestions for properly mixing the solution?

Hello. Frankly I found Angier a waste of space on my bookshelf for two reasons:

1) Some of the names he uses now don't seem to be understood by modren chemical suppliers. Almost as if it is a foreign language to them. The "old guys" who used to know what they meant have all now died out.

2) Modern hazard rules mean that a lot of this stuff cannot now be shipped within reasonable prices and most suppiers of such chemicals won't sell anymore in small quantities.

And safe and lawful disposal of it is also a problem if you want to do more than just tip it down a hole in your garden.

The problem at 1) has to some small extent been solved by the internet that does often give a modern name for these old time names of chemicals.

But 2) for me here in UK was the problem. No one would now supply in small amounts. The true old fashioned chemist shop or pharamacy shop that used to be happy to supply has gone.

Good Luck! I hope that my input was not too pessimistic.

I've got them pre-mixed. If you want to make your own, you can get HCL as pool acid, Everclear/liquor store is a good source for ethyl alcohol, and distilled water at the grocery store. Metallic salts are a different matter. Potassium chloride is available as a salt substitute at the grocery (Lite Salt). Copper sulphate 99% can be purchased at a farm center. You need a business license and receiving dock to order many other hazardous chemicals. If you mix an alcohol and an acid, gas is generated in the reaction and must be vented. HCL often produces after rust and must be neutralized in cold dilute 10% lye and water by weight. You need a reloading scale or electronic scale to measure properly.

Bob

www.rustblue.com

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I am thinking about giving one of the formulas in Angiers book a try and would welcome any input.

It is Aa 22. Iron free with one metallic salt;

Bismuth oxychloride
Hydrocloric acid
Alcohol 90*
Water

Anyone here tried this one or have any suggestions for properly mixing the solution?

Input: forget it and buy some known good solutions from Brownells.

I have used the Gun Goddess rust blue on a hobby basis and it worked very well for me.

quote:

Input: forget it and buy some known good solutions from Brownells.

About 40 years ago I mixed my own. Since then I've bought off the shelf and have always had good results.

Just not worth the headaches when you can buy great products already mixed. A little goes a long way.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Hello. Frankly I found Angier a waste of space on my bookshelf for two reasons:

1) Some of the names he uses now don't seem to be understood by modren chemical suppliers. Almost as if it is a foreign language to them. The "old guys" who used to know what they meant have all now died out.

2) Modern hazard rules mean that a lot of this stuff cannot now be shipped within reasonable prices and most suppiers of such chemicals won't sell anymore in small quantities.

And safe and lawful disposal of it is also a problem if you want to do more than just tip it down a hole in your garden.

The problem at 1) has to some small extent been solved by the internet that does often give a modern name for these old time names of chemicals.

But 2) for me here in UK was the problem. No one would now supply in small amounts. The true old fashioned chemist shop or pharamacy shop that used to be happy to supply has gone.

Good Luck! I hope that my input was not too pessimistic.

I appreciate the truth of much of what you are saying. It is a very dated book, but I still feel there is much to be learned from understanding the art as it was pioneered. Hundreds of man hours were spent in compiling the lessons learned in it. In fact I think it could be a very useful book for anyone interested in rust blueing. I have read a LOT of people who tired various rust blueing and got unsatisfactory results, myself included. Perhaps the information about pickeling could be key to fixing some of those issues.

It is true that most of the formulas are either extremely hazardous, the ingredients are not available or both. I think I will pass on the Fuming Nitric acid and Mercuric chloride. But that is why I have sorted out this one. Hydrochloric, or Muriatic acid is easily attainable and is applicable in uses as simple as masonary or painting work. Alchol is as simple as a trip to the local liquor store. And bizmuth oxychloride is nothing more than a pearly substance used in cosmetology.

I appreciate the comments guys, but still would like to hear from anyone who has tried experimenting with different formulas, or perhaps someone with a chemistry background. Searching the web it appears that there are still quite a few who use the old method of Nitric acid and iron (nails). Is that the "Neider" formula you refer to Duane?

I have tried Mark Lee and couldn't get it to work worth a darn. I have had various degrees of success with Dicropan IM, but it is odd stuff to work with. Kind of like cold blue meets rust blue. I have heard a lot of people say that adding multiple coats is the key, but my experience has been the opposite. To me it seems like you need to nail it on the first go round or is never going to look right. I have had some success with using plumb brown of all things, and then boiling the metal. But the results with that have been inconsistent at best as well. I hope to come up with a satisfactory system someday..

quote:

Searching the web it appears that there are still quite a few who use the old method of Nitric acid and iron (nails). Is that the "Neider" formula you refer to Duane?

This is what I had on file for the Neider formula.

Niedner rust blue formula in metric is 6.4 grams hydrocloric acid , density 1.19 grams /cc or 7.55 grams density 1.16 grams /cc ; 8 grams nitric acid , density 1.42 grams / cc dilutes with 25 cc destilled water and 1.6 grams of pure iron filling , bring the solution to 100 cc with destilled water.



Also Which looks stronger
-60ml Nitric, 40 ml Hydrochloric + iron fillings. let all the iron dissolve, let it sit for a day or two, decant into another clean dry container.

Another thought if you go to the pool supply store to buy HCL it will be what they call Muratic which is a diluted HCL.

Muriatic” acid is a slang term for hydrochloric acid, or a solution of water and HCl. The specific strength of acid used in the pool industry is 31.45% HCl. However, the strength commonly used in laboratory applications, sometimes referred to as “concentrated” HCl, is 37%. About a 20% difference.

As I stated earlier I made my own years ago HCL, Nitric and iron. Can't remember nor can I find the exact mix. I would still buy off the shelf and spend my time on an extra

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
I've got them pre-mixed. If you want to make your own, you can get HCL as pool acid, Everclear/liquor store is a good source for ethyl alcohol, and distilled water at the grocery store. Metallic salts are a different matter. Potassium chloride is available as a salt substitute at the grocery (Lite Salt). Copper sulphate 99% can be purchased at a farm center. You need a business license and receiving dock to order many other hazardous chemicals. If you mix an alcohol and an acid, gas is generated in the reaction and must be vented. HCL often produces after rust and must be neutralized in cold dilute 10% lye and water by weight. You need a reloading scale or electronic scale to measure properly.

Bob

www.rustblue.com

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I am thinking about giving one of the formulas in Angiers book a try and would welcome any input.

It is Aa 22. Iron free with one metallic salt;

Bismuth oxychloride
Hydrocloric acid
Alcohol 90*
Water

Anyone here tried this one or have any suggestions for properly mixing the solution?

Thank you Bobster. Which of your solutions seems to be the most popular?

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Searching the web it appears that there are still quite a few who use the old method of Nitric acid and iron (nails). Is that the "Neider" formula you refer to Duane?

This is what I had on file for the Neider formula.

Niedner rust blue formula in metric is 6.4 grams hydrocloric acid , density 1.19 grams /cc or 7.55 grams density 1.16 grams /cc ; 8 grams nitric acid , density 1.42 grams / cc dilutes with 25 cc destilled water and 1.6 grams of pure iron filling , bring the solution to 100 cc with destilled water.

Good stuff. Thank you Paul.

[/QUOTE]


Thank you Bobster. Which of your solutions seems to be the most popular?[/QUOTE]

American is most popular 5:1. Swiss is the fastest acting and has the most "tooth". With some steels you can get a good result in as little as two passes. Frontier Brown can also be used to rust blue with if steamed or boiled after each pass. It gives a very deep black color. Here is a link to a forum thread posted by a customer: http://mausercentral.com/forum...pic.php?f=13&t=48432

I am not sure if you mix the acids first and then add the iron or if you dissolve the iron in HCL to get Ferric Chloride first and then add Nitric acid. ??

I have been wanting to try rust bluing for at least 7 years now. The Remington .22LR has been stripped and sitting on the table for that long!

The first time I got the acids from a Lab industrial chemicals supplier as samples! I mixed the acids and then put degreased steel wool into it. The whole thing fumed and boiled over BIG time! I left it siting around for too long and had to throw it out (farm paddock).

Now I have some more acid and read about the process of dissolving iron in HCL first.

Then I found that I can buy Ferric Chloride used for etching Printed circuit boards!

Ferric Chloride powder (instead of dissolving iron filings in HCL) from Element 14 - $11.62
http://nz.element14.com/cif/ar...1l-bottle/dp/2345434

Here is a metric formula I found

Nitric acid 15cc
Hydrochloric acid 12cc
Distilled water 5cc
Iron filings or chips 30 gr

TOTAL 62 cc

Laurel Mtn rust blue/brown soln is ferric chloride soln. It works well.
You can go through the bother to mix your own if you want the satisfaction,,I know I did when I was younger. But for the last 40yrs or so, I've just used a commercial mix.

Mark Lee for Hot Rust blue, Laurel Mtn for slow rust is what I've settled on after using about everything available. Plenty of others that'll do just as well too.

Learn the necessary techniques which are more of the puzzle than what's in the soln themselves. Then you'll have the mystery of rust bluing solved.

Stay away from the toxic mercury compounds in the older formulas.
They work great but aren't great for you and who ever else happens to come in contact with your work area and where ever else you drag the carding dust around too.

FWIW, Ferric Chloride works well as the etch soln when doing a damascus finish.
A very weak soln of 5% or so works well to bring out the pattern and still leave the color on the softer iron portion of the composite bbl material.

What ever you use use distilled water at least
for your first attempts.

I'm quoting from memory but I believe Pete Mazur said he could get a nice finish using orange juice if that was all he had.

Based on my observations of public restrooms it should be quite a prodigeous rust producer! Albeit a bit smelly. Blood would also work well given my experience with dove and quail blood on firearm metal. Perhaps a pee and blood mix. Hmmm, I may add that one to the lineup.

The trick is controlling grain size. Yeah, a lot of things can cause steel to rust, but can you control how fine the rust is to get an acceptable commercial finish?

Bob
www.rustblue.com

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Hee Hee..legend has it that you can blue or browen using plain urine. "Metal don't care hows it gets rusty"

GO GREEN...Yeaaaah!

Brownells has their own rust blue solution they are marketing now. Price is reasonable and they have had it in their catalogue for a couple of years now.

When I get time this winter I may give it a try.