Brownells is temporarily out of them. Anyone know of another source or does anyone have one they want to part with? I would like the round type, not the pointy one.

Chic,
Doesn't Dakota sell them direct?
http://www.dakotaarms.com/cgi-bin/quikstore.cgi?categor...ckmaking_Accessories

- stu

Oh, just re-read the question. Buttplate, not grip cap. Can't see it on Dakota's website.

Call Dakota direct; ask for Paulette or for her email:

paulette@dakotaarms.com
605/347-4686

Jim

I just finished inletting one of those on Friday--one of the pointy ones. What a PITA! Looks nice but how much are people willing to pay to have one installed? I'd bet as slow as I am it would come out out to be about $5 or $6 per hour.

Jim, thanks for the tip. I just called Paulette and she told me the sad news. Said they will not be making any of those for some time and when they do, they will not be near the price they were. I am going to check out one source she said to try. The are though priced at $150.

BTW, she is a very nice lady and I had a great conversation with her.

Customstox

Didn't Dakota "borrow" that design from the McFarland folks? The ones that still make the checkered bolt handles. Maybe they still make a few or have one or two lying around that you could purchase.

Weren't their names Stan and Max? Father and Son aren't they?

Chic,

I have a solid one if you want to skeletonize it yourself.

How much difference is the Biesen models?

http://www.biesen.com/access.htm

22wrf, There were people that made them before the McFarlands but the Dakota is certainly similar to the other. I do not remember seeing the pointy one from McFarlands but I could be wrong. I used McFarlands for a long time until they stopped.

Andy, I might be interested in that. I will send you a pm and discuss it.

The Biesen is stamped and rather cheesy in comparison.

Gentlemens:

Galazan offers one, but they are right proud of it.

http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID3603772P1957280-Butt-Pla...eton-Butt-Plate.aspx

Perhaps Waffenfabrik Hein has what you would like?

Hein

I know they offer it as an option on their rifle but perhaps they either have or would make what you want. they seem to be very open to custom orders. All except a Win M70 pre-64 style of action but with a tang safety.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Customstox

Didn't Dakota "borrow" that design from the McFarland folks? The ones that still make the checkered bolt handles. Maybe they still make a few or have one or two lying around that you could purchase.

Weren't their names Stan and Max? Father and Son aren't they?

I'd sure like to hear MUCH MORE on this.

I bet there's a lot of dirt to dig up on this one. I could be wrong.

gunmaker

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Customstox

Didn't Dakota "borrow" that design from the McFarland folks? The ones that still make the checkered bolt handles. Maybe they still make a few or have one or two lying around that you could purchase.

Weren't their names Stan and Max? Father and Son aren't they?

I'd sure like to hear MUCH MORE on this.

I bet there's a lot of dirt to dig up on this one. I could be wrong.

gunmaker

Well, for the longest time Brownells carried a steel skeletonized buttplate called the McFarland Buttplate. Looked to be a very high quality piece, as I am sure it was if Customstox thought enough of them to use them on his custom stockwork. The all of a sudden Dakota started offering all of their stuff, and within about a year the mcFarland stuff wasn't there anymore, except for the current offering which is the checkered bolt handle.

I am not sure if they are still making custom rifles or not, but I know that they used to.

But then there has been alot of stuff like that over the years. I remember way back when David Miller started offering the 2 position model 70 type safety for mausers. you could buy them from him ready to insall. He made the levers and the pins in his shop. Next thing you know you could buy them from Don Allen when he was in Northfield, and from a host of other places.

By the way, if I remember correctly, I think that skeletonized buttplate idea came from the early Parker shotguns didn't it? Mabye not.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Customstox

Didn't Dakota "borrow" that design from the McFarland folks? The ones that still make the checkered bolt handles. Maybe they still make a few or have one or two lying around that you could purchase.

Weren't their names Stan and Max? Father and Son aren't they?

I'd sure like to hear MUCH MORE on this.

I bet there's a lot of dirt to dig up on this one. I could be wrong.

gunmaker

What dirt is there to dig up about a simple piece of steel? No one has a patent on cutting out the inside of a butplate. To me this is kind of like another company offering an inletted sling swivel base. Hardly something to cry foul over.

Wes

WESR, you are right. There is nothing to get worked up over.

Do you know of this for a fact Steve? Or is it just one of your rants? Quite an unkind character assasination of someone who has passed away if you can't substantiate it.

BTW, I have an old one that I got from Bill McGuire that is definitey pre McFarland, at least according to Bill and looks pretty much the same. So who did McFarland copy?

Chic, SDH.

I have had many people ask me to start making skeleton buttplates also. There are two reasons why I have not.

The first is who is coping who.

The second and best reason is that I simply do not have the spare time currently to even think about it.

Several years ago when I made the tooling to form the buttplates from .100" steel. Stan McFarland would not make any in stainless so I had to make 10 of them for a well known stockmaker.
Which by the way you guys should consider this. It took me 5 days to make the two halfs to form the buttplate. From 2 1/2" square 4140 steel with an 1.00" guide pin on each end. So the investment of time for tooling is what will bite you in the behind on this part.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

Jim

You make such great stuff ( I can attest that the straddle floorplates for 1909 Argengines are beautifully made) I don't see why you don't get someone there to help you out a little bit if your so pressed for time.

Jim, I spoke to Dakota and they said they are not likely going to making them anytime in the near future and they have a crew of people working there. They are trying to find someone who might make them in mass. They have asked Gary Turner at Talley and so far no luck. They also said that when they do get some done they will be priced like the Gallazan ones are, in the $150 range.

Customstox

In the world of custom stock builders such as yourself, are you still finding a lot of requests for these metal type buttplates. Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the stocks you build nowadays have the metal buttplates as opposed to the rubber buttpads.

Probably 1 metal to every 4 or 5 rubber, maybe even less than that.

I hope you find one soon

Terry

SDH, I wouldn't hire you to carve a toothpick.

Dempsey

On what qualification do you make such a statement? Pretty poor taste if you ask me, which you didn't, but pretty poor taste just the same.

Steve,

I think we have all heard the rumors about the fellow your talking about, and I have heard them from several different people. So I assume that it's true, but it's only an assumption. I do agree with you that practice being extremely unethical.

Having said that, I agree with Chic that it's rather crass to bad mouth the dead.

If you want to, that's fine. You can say what you want to say, but your last post was uncalled for and totally out of line.

quote:

Having said that, I agree with Chic that it's rather crass to bad mouth the dead.

If you want to, that's fine. You can say what you want to say, but your last post was uncalled for and totally out of line.

I'd have to second that.

I do understand...and I regard that kind of piracy with the utmost disdain.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Dempsey

On what qualification do you make such a statement? Pretty poor taste if you ask me, which you didn't, but pretty poor taste just the same.

22wrf, on the qualification that SDH is too often rude and obnoxious, I think *that* is in poor taste and as a consumer I would look elsewhere.

Dempsey

There is not one single person in this thread that has not at one time been rude and obnoxious on the AR forums, including me.

Your statement was rude and obnoxious because the way in which you stated it could leave the reader to believe that SDH is not a very accomplished custom gunmaker, when in fact he is a very accomplished and highly skilled gunmaker.

I think a better choice of words would have been something along the lines that Scrollcutter used.

Moreover, having read many threads on these forums, there is no doubt that SDH's opinon is shared by many others. They may not have said it in the same way, but it is shared.

How would you like it if all of your customers suddenly stopped coming to you just becasue you believed something different than they did? And besides, you were never going to spend a buck with SDH anyway, were you?

22wrf, I made my comment and I really don't feel any need to explain it to anyone or care if they disagree, I answered your post out of courtesy and I believe my point has been made. I did not make this comment based soley on this thread rather several over quite a peiod of time, for whatever reason it irked me more than usual. I do find it odd you do not direct similiar commentary towards SDH as he got this ball rolling with yet another rude and obnoxious post, one in which I simply responded to in kind. Of course you are free to disagree and I'll leave it at that.

Aw shucks I missed the post that heated up this discussion.

I'd sure like to know McFarland's side of the story.

gunmaker

Chic W

Maybe with your work on fine "presentation" stocks, you find 4 or 5 to 1, but I have found hunters seldom want a steel butt treatment any more. Of those that do, even fewer want one skeletonized. I see them on 'high end" or presentation guns, not on "shooters" The only ones I have done are for my own guns. I suspect the market for these is a fraction of the market for steel grip caps. I agree there will always be a small but devoted group that can appreciate and afford fine guns, but is it large enough to support the market for this part?

I made a fixture to rough these out with a manual mill, but it is time consuming. By the time I am finished, I could never sell them and make any money. If someone offered a reasonable finished product, or even a rough casting that could be drilled, countersunk and polished, I would never make another one.

Jim W.

It seems you have the market contacts and have already developed the tooling. Seems the same to me as making parts designed by some guy working for Winchester or Marlin last century. I don't think any current maker would feel you were "stealing" the idea. Maybe you should rethink making a small trial run of these?

Roger

Steve,

quote:

As for my original post, I purposely didn't mention anyone's name simply out of respect for the dead.
As for the circumstance, it is well verified in the gunmaking community, like it or not. If you had ever talked to the fellow I did mention, you might understand.

Out of respect for the dead? If that was the case you would have just kept your mouth shut. And hearing a version from someone and passing it on is no more than rumor mongoring and hardly qualifies as being "well verified." You make is sound like there was some kind of tribunal that met to verify the facts. Everyone knew who you meant even if you did not mention a name.

I missed reading your post but I was told by several people what it contained.

If you wish to learn or get "enlightended" on how to install a skeleton butt plate there are plenty of sources that I can refer you to. If however, you thought you were putting me in a postion that I had to PROVE to you that I knew how, then you have a hell of a lot higher opinion of yourself than I have ever held of you.

And why don't I just build one? Look at the post by Jim Wisner and what he said about the difficulty of building them. I have managed to find what I want on here via private messages. I also know that you never have firm prices with your clients and bill them for time expended on a job and can spend the time to create one and then tack that on to the price. I feel it is an obligation of mine to give my clients the best bang for the buck and that would not fit in with me building one, nor would I expect it would for anyone else.

RogerR,
The 4 or 5 to 1, also included "maybe even less than that". It was just a stab at an answer. Most often when I am asked to do them, it is a Biesen or Neidner solid steel type. Most of my stocks are used buy hunters as well.

You asked "I agree there will always be a small but devoted group that can appreciate and afford fine guns, but is it large enough to support the market for this part?" I really don't care if it can support the market, but evidently it did for quite some time. Right now it is just difficult to find them outside of Connecticut Shotgun Co. I only started this thread to find one and I may have gotten the grip cap and butt plate I need through the help of two of our members here.

'bout time I added my little bit of character asaasination (sp). I sometimes found it hard to agree with Stevie, but on this one I think he is right, spot on. Remember the "metalsmith" who did the work on the "Last xxx Axxxn Custom Rifle" for the guild? How about the design for the Dakota action? And then the model 10? Or the mini Sharps? I could go on and on but out of respect for the dead, I won't. By the way, he was not one of my heroes.

I’ve sort of been following this thread, but I guess I missed the deleted post that caused such a ruckus.

Is someone claiming that they, or someone they knew, “invented“ the skeleton buttplate and someone else “stole†the idea???????????

I remember seeing a skeleton buttplate on a rifle in the Smithsonian that probably dates back to the middle 1700’s.

This whole thing sounds like that other series of posts where people were talking about copywriting a stock pattern so no one could “steal†it.

I wonder what the real story is on the Talley type scope mounts. I know that Talley was making custom bases for Conetrol mounts at one time when he was also doing custom metalwork. And then Len Brownell passed away. And then Talley all of a sudden was making those Broiwnell type of mounts. And then all of a sudden Kimber was making them too. And I believe that at one time Len Brownell was employed for a short while by Kimber of Oregon and had something to do with design work on the original Kimber Big Game Rifles.

Don't misunderstand. I am not saying anybody stole anything. Just wondering how that transformation happened, and also wondering if anybody made that style of ring before Len Brownell made it.

My understanding is that Brownell was associated with Ruger.

Jim Wisner worked up the design of the Kimbers

I think this thread has gone south of the original post. Chic was simply looking for a buttplate.

Of course, Mr Wonderful, I need to bow down to your superior knowledge. You are such an incredibly self inflated ass.

What really escapes you is the concept of bad mouthing someone who is dead.

I am editing this post, not to delete it Steve as you did with all of yours, but so everyone knows with the now disjointed responses, that mine was directed at you.