I am not an FFL.
I am selling a Remington 1903A3 Sporter on Gunbroker. I've been asked if I will ship to C+R license holder.
I'd like to know if it is legal to ship this firearm to a C+R license holder.
Thanks
Dave Snellstrom

I do believe the "sporterized" part would make it non CR eligible. If it was still in its' "original configuration" it would qualify as a CR firearm.

I read on the ATF website that changing sights or adding scope was not a problem, they went on to say that adding a synthetic stock was a problem. Replacing the wood stock with a direct replacement not a problem....
They never went on to say about replacing the wood with a sporter stock so that is the sticking point.

quote:

I read on the ATF website that changing sights or adding scope was not a problem, they went on to say that adding a synthetic stock was a problem. Replacing the wood stock with a direct replacement not a problem....
They never went on to say about replacing the wood with a sporter stock so that is the sticking point.

I wonder if that means you could ship the metal in one box as original parts and a synthetic stock in another as ... just a stock??

Had a C&R license for about 6 years, but hardly an expert. There were times a seller (professional type involved in guns sales) would accept my C&R and times another would not. I truly would only try to buy a C&R rifle as I understood what one was. A number of times, what I thought should be a C&R, was not considered C&R by its seller....often one heavily involved in firearms sales that should know what they are talking about. I did not argue with the seller...his rifle, his rules. I just didn't buy it. So, yea, its confusing.

I had a C&R for some time and now have an 07 FFL. My rule for accepting and selling FFL items is that if the firearm has been altered from its military state that it is no longer a C&R. If it is a sporter C&R then... well I guess everything is fair game.

I had a point of contention recently where I was selling a sporterized Swede. The buyer said yes it was a C&R, I said no because it had a synthetic and was drilled and tapped for a scope.

So, in short. If it was a military rifle, and it is now a sporter, it is not a C&R. The tricky part gets into WHEN was it sporterized. If it was sporterized in the 40's or 50s....

Short answer is No.

FAL Grunt has it right. if sporterized before 1963, it is good to go and no different than a marlin 336 made that same year.

I'm not sure I would hang my hat on the method of what year it was sporterized in, how do you know?

Please read my second post in this thread, this information was obtained in the FAQ section of the ATF website. No mention of sporter wood stock only mention of synthetic sporter stock.

The Marlin 336 made in '62 or '63 is a C&R too,,
as long as it's still in it's original configuration.

Change certain things and it's no longer a C&R. It doesn't matter if the firearm was an imported Military rifle or a USA produced sporting arm.

50y/o and older and in it's 'original configuration'.

The BATFE explanation about the M1 stocks makes it clear that "...we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable.."

NEW parts that are of the ORIGINAL design...

If the new stock doesn't match what the firearm left the factory or arsenal with,,you've removed the firearm from the C&R status.
You've changed a big part of what made the firearm collectable and C&R in the first place.

BATFE C&R definition..
"Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons."

You could argue this forever.
Anything that is 50 years old is a C&R.
That means it is a curio and relic. That does not mean it has ANY COLLECTABLE value based on being 50 years old.

Curio & Relic has a BATF definition. They've laid that out.

The 50y/o rule is a criteria that allows a firearms to be a C&R.
They've also laid that out.

Now they've added 'in it's original configuration' to that criteria that allows a firearm to be, and also remain, a C&R.

They've added that recently because of the always asked question of 'Does a firearm have to be in it's original configuration to remain a C&R.'
No other reason to add it in there if it was never an issue.


What they could do is a better job of explaining things everytime they make a ruling so no one has to assume anything.

Thanks guys I appreciate the opinions.
The Springfield sold and it is shipping to FFL holder.
Thanks again.

The 50 year default has really been gutted lately. The original configuration used to only pertain to foreign military arms. I am a longtime C&R holder. I still have paper regs from years ago. I had a C&R long before I had a computer/internet.

A 50 year old sporterization of a foreign military arm is not and has never been C&R eligible.

I do not know if US receivers are C&R or not. I think they used to be and they very well still may be. The justification would be restoring an arm to military config, not as the basis for a sporter. I know Century, SOG and others used to ship US receivers to C&R holders.

The BATFE has really cracked down on sporterization across the board. I can't tell you how many gunsmiths that I personally know who have been told or warned to stop customizing or get a manufactureres license. Some have and some just turned in their FFL.

ATF Ruling 85-10 and the various importation regs have been (in my opinion erroneously) applied to US military receivers by the Firearms Technology Branch.

This stinks as this was not the intent of those regs. US Military rifles must be in original configuration. They make the rules not us.

quote:

original configuration.

I doubt that the BATF has documentation that acutally constitutes what "original configuration" is. That includes all variations of all military rifles and all commercial rifles.
Configuration is defined by the engineering drawings and the BATFE does not have the engineering drawings. Not only would they need the engineering drawings but they would need the configuration of each rifle sold by serial number. Otherwise how do you know a particular Mannlicher Schoenauer is originally a sporter or was a converted military rifle. They were sold both ways.

There are grey areas for sure, but they hold the cards. The ATF used to use Flayderman's guide for determining age when there was a grey area or no serial number.

I really think the Firearms Technology Branch overstepped the regs. The reg was clearly for foreign military arms and they just arbitrarily applied it to US Military arms.

Back in the day when there was actually a book of C&R firearms (I think you can still print it out @500 or so pages) there were many guns in there far younger than 50 years. You can apply to BATF for a C&R designation on anything. As I recall many "modern" Colt and Winchester commemoratives were included as someone had applied and gotten a positive ruling. The one I always remember was the 37mm French antitank gun that was okay because there was no ammo (anyone own a lathe?).

I happen to like B model 721s and 722s. I have a nice book with all the serial #s. Some are C&R, some are not. Never had a problem.

Perhaps we need to submit a list of all military and commercial rifles followed by the word sporter and or modified to the BATF to get classify them as C&R as long as they are 50 years old.
After all an original Gatling gun is just classed as an antique and not subject to any control.

Is a 60- year old M94 Winchester with bailing wire wrapped around the wrist not a C&R. It is no longer in original configuration.

I have that C&R book. There are single serial number models in it that were most likely C&R'd by the owner through Firearms Technology Branch, Marlin model X, sn. #11113.

The BATFE used to send new paper regs with every renewal.
then one year they sent me a CD. They haven't sent me anything in the last 2 or 3 renewals.

The good news for C&R holders is:

1.BATF no longer inspects your records as they do with a regular FFL

2. When you surrender your license, you don't have to send in all your records.

artshaw = 45-70 shooter = Larry Root.

quote:

I happen to like B model 721s and 722s. I have a nice book with all the serial #s. Some are C&R, some are not. Never had a problem.

If memory serves correctly and the last of the 721/722 series was made in 1961, then all would qualify as C&R "if in original configuration". The term "original configuration" is obviously subject to interpretation, but it seems that ATF has been fairly sensible in this respect. They don't consider aftermarket engraving, stock refinishing, replacement of parts with similar parts, or normal repairs as disqualifying modifications. Rechambering or rebarreling to a caliber in which the gun was never produced might disqualify it, as might replacing the conventional stock with a thumbhole model with adjustable LOP or something of that nature. The C&R category was created to "facilitate collecting" or words to that effect, and specifically not for the purposes of engaging in business.