While working up a load over a chronograph yesterday, In order to save bullets, powder, primers and time, I would load only two shots at a time and fire the two and record the velocity. I would then walk 20 feet to my reloading bench and load two more, then walk the same 20 steps back to the shooting table and fire those two. Time between group firings is appox. 10-15 minutes. All two shot groups were shot @ 100 yards. Of the 9 each two shot groups, all shot under 1 MOA (1") with the best being 1/4" (holes touching). I went back to the 1/4" group loading and loaded three of this same load. I fired the first two and they grouped 3/8". The third shot fired went off to make it a 1-1/2" group. I loaded up three of the same load and shot these at 200 yds. The first two were a 3/4" group and the the third went off over 4" away to make it a 4-3/4" group. I repeated the same loading as well as some other loads and the same thing to various degrees, two tight and one flyer. In every bolt action rifle I own this occurs to some extent. It does not matter what make or model. I have seen this in pictures posted on this forum and others as well. Why does this occur??????
It seems if the barrel is allowed to cool for 10 minutes or so then the shots go back to normal, but shoot three in a row and you get a flyer. This occurs with floated barrels and non-floated barrels. With bedded actions and non- bedded actions. WHY??????????????????????? I can not say if this occurs with custom barrels but it does with factory Winchester, Remington, CZ, Savage, and Tikka barrels. Some worse than others and not always but most of the time.

Probably because the barrel expands and moves as it heats up. The more it heats, the more it moves. When the barrel begins to move, the barrels harmonics shift. Needless to say, this does nothing for consistency. Factory barrels are not normally produced with the same care as custom barrels so they will exhibit flaws the customs won't when heated which is why custom barrels demand such a premium..

If it is always the 3rd shot that is the flyer then you might have a heat related issue. I will just as often have a first shot be away from 2&3 touching. I've found my 1 shot groups to be very tight.

My wife has a very light barrel 7x57 when she shoots it as fast as she can for accuracy the first 3 will form a .5-.75MOA group the 4th shot opens to 1.5 and the 5th to about 2+moa. I see that as no issue. Todate she has not needed #2 much less the 4&5th. If she did need 4&5 a 2"MOA issue would be the least of the worries.

If you consistantly group 2 touching each and everytime and the point of impact is the same for a normal hunting rifle I could live with it. A varmint that would be shoot numerous times and HOT then I would worry.

Could also be a shooter concentration issue especially if it's consistently moving the same general direction with different rifles.

Personally I don't use three shot groups But that is a separate issue.
It is as others have stated most likely a heat issue. Load five rounds and shoot them over a longer period of time giving the barrel time to cool in between shots

If it is a hunting rifle, How many times do you have a chance for a 3rd shot? For my BR rifle, I shoot 3 shot groups until I find what I think is a good load and then shoot 5 shot groups. If I can shoot 2 shot groups and they repeat on a hunting rifle, it is good. I have had very few times that[none] that I needed a third shot. If it is an inch away it will still kill the animal if you aim in the right spot instead of the ass.
Butch

Group size has nothing to do with how many shots you may need on an animal.
It is to prove how consistent you, your loads, and the rifle is.

The Ladder Principle: I read a lot about testing a powder using the ladder concept. Start about 3/10ths grain below the starting load recommendation. Load two rounds, and fire, bump 3/10ths grain at a time and fire two rounds. Somewhere, two of the loads will "cluster". That is supposed to be the sweet spot for that powder with that bullet. For those of you with good measures like the Neil Jones or Culver, or Harrell; one or two clicks. A lot of benchrest shooters don't really know what their powder charge is. They open a new lot of powder and ask for a "good number" on the same measure they have. Works to shoot groups under .1" at 200yds.

Rich

I like to shoot for groups as much as anyone. What I do for MY hunting rifle is go to the range and fire one shot from a cold barrel several times over several weeks before a hunt. It's that first shot that I want to be dead on everytime,that is if I do my part.

quote:

In every bolt action rifle I own this occurs to some extent. It does not matter what make or model. I have seen this in pictures posted on this forum and others as well. Why does this occur??????
It seems if the barrel is allowed to cool for 10 minutes or so then the shots go back to normal, but shoot three in a row and you get a flyer. This occurs with floated barrels and non-floated barrels. With bedded actions and non- bedded actions.

Kind of makes you wonder about all these guys who don't own a rifle that won't shoot under 1"!

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Group size has nothing to do with how many shots you may need on an animal.
It is to prove how consistent you, your loads, and the rifle is.

Thanks KC!

Hey Rae, You are getting some interesting answers. I agree with Westpac that it sounds like the barrel is simply moving a bit when it heats up. That kind of movement would concern me, because a lot of the Hunting I do is in 90+deg weather.

Check and see if your barrel is Floated, no upward pressure near the tip of the stock. If it is Floated, perhaps a bit of Pressure(glass in a Pad) would help control the movement for 3-5 shots. And then again maybe not. It would be quick enough to Test by cramming something under the barrel at that point and firing 4-5 shots.

I actually prefer cumulative 1-shot Groups from a pristine clean barrel, "once" my Hunting Load is verified. I have had to take maybe 6-8 second shots at Game over the years, but I've yet to need a third shot. However, you should shoot as many as you want.

During Load Development, I might shoot 3-5, 9, or 15-18 at the same Load level. I never do it while the barrel is real hot though.

If the upward pressure pad does not correct the problem, perhaps a Cryogenic Treatment "might" fix it. I've not needed one done on any of my rifles. And the cost is relatively close to what some Custom Barrels would run. Might go on and be better to put a new Custom Barrel on it.

Anyway, best of luck to you.

I get my best groups from a single shot .Saves a lot of money and time.

I find the same issue with my factory barrels. Actions are trued and full bed job. I shoot 5 shot groups and after shooting 300RUM in warmer weather I started really learning how much different barrel temps. will effect POI.

I bring multiple rifles to the range at a time and on the sizzling rounds (RUMS, WSM, WSSM, etc...) I allow 10-15 min between shots.

My 300RUM went from 1.5ish to a .5-.75 consistent shooter when allowed to cool off.

Same results with 30-06AI and 25WSSM so now I let everything cooool!!!

Yes, I know, has nothing to do with dropping animals!! But I love to shoot!

Thanks for the replys gentleman. As I 've stated earlier, I have rifles with FULLY floated barrels and one that is not (CZ550 in 375 H&H). All more or less do the same thing - two tight/ one flyer. Some just a lot tighter than others and with different patterns of grouping. I am in the process of getting a Krieger barrel put on a 270 Win. and will see how that turns out. By the way the CZ is a story in it's own. When chronographing the first shot will be around 2730 fps. With out exception the second shot will drop to 2620-2640 fps. Then the third will jump back up to low 2700 fps. (?)

quote:

If I can shoot 2 shot groups and they repeat on a hunting rifle, it is good. I have had very few times that[none] that I needed a third shot. If it is an inch away it will still kill the animal if you aim in the right spot instead of the ass.
Butch

Thats perfect

2 close and 1 flier are normal. With 3 shots you aren't even beginning to get an idea of how the rifle shoots. 5 shots minimum, 10 shots is better and 20 really will show how the rifle shoots.

Those fliers usually aren't accidental - they are how the rifle really shoots!

It depends on how anal you are and how accurate of data you want.

I shoot 10 shot groups at 100 yards.

This gives you more reliable information both group size and Extreme spread data.

With a custom long range hunting rifles my expecatations of sub .5 moa at 100 yards.

With target rifles F-Class or Tactical my expectations are sub .4 moa.

Longshot

It's an interesting subject this one. I have always believed, borne out by years of hunting and shooting experience, that 95% of being a productive hunter is having perfect faith in your rifle and ammunition. If you go into the field with any sort of doubt about your bullet performance or accuracy of your ammo you are defeated from the start.

Personally (as a hunter not a target or competative shooter) I have never been a fan of multi shot groups when testing loads and always do my shooting at 50m. I want to get 2-3 shots grouping and on the correct POA and I want to be able to duplicate that exactly everytime I visit the range.
Sure I have shot on targets at longer ranges but in general ballistic tables published for the bullet and velocity are more then enough to go by when setting your POA at 50m. After all when out hunting, the ranges you find animals are not consistently at 50-100-150-200 etc metres or yards so a bullet trajectory + or - a few inches at longer ranges is not going to have as much effect as your own hold under hunting conditions or the uphill/downhill gravity effect you have to contend with.

I have seen too many people at the range shooting packet after packet of ammo and still go away not really sure if the rifle is shooting groups or is shot to POA.

As a couple of posters have said, the first shot from a clean cold barrel is the most important and if you can go to the target and put one bullet on the same POA each and every time then there is nothing wrong with your rifle or ammo and you will be a successful hunter (provide you can find animals of course!!!).

quote:

If it is a hunting rifle, How many times do you have a chance for a 3rd shot?

Exactly.