The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Full length or two point bedding on my Schultz & LarsenGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Does it make a difference if it’s a full length bedding or just each end of the action, both including an inch of the barrel. Has anyone had bad experience with the two point bedding and afterwards on the same rifle better result with full length bedding I would believe the most important is that it’s a stress free bedding, but of course if the wood is varying between the bedding points it will no longer be stress free, the rifle I’ll do the a bedding job with is with laminated stock Found these on the tube, is that the way to go for a perfect result? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1Wbrj9yJpA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIMe_uSkR4k Thanks Bjarne | ||
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I would reason to guess if they are done correctly you would not know the difference. Although you would be wasting a little bit of compound it's not that big a deal. Just be sure however you do it that all the extra bedding compound is removed from all the unnecessary areas. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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With a wood stocked rifle please do keep a good close wood to metal fit at the join between top of stock and the action. I have seen a number of wood stocked rifles that have been ruined by unsightly bedding compound showing around the action. My Walnut stocked heym is glass and pillar bedded, but you would n't know this unless you pull the stock. | |||
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True statement. Nothing worse the a fine piece of wood ruined by a epoxy filled gap around the action. I was told and I practice procedure of leaving the last .100" of wood at the wood line alone and glass bed down from there. It does a great job of hiding the bedding compound and if done correctly will make the stock look like it grew around the action. That said It is an art that I'm an apprentice to the apprentice of. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I’m mainly concerned about accuracy and functionality, not that much what the wood will look like  Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Heres the thing you need to select a stock that has enough wood in the forearm to be rigid and not flex under recoil. Then the barrel needs to be a heavy contour. then bed the hell out of the action and hog out a groove in the barrel channel that leaves 1/16" clearance. The barrel should never touch the stock at that point. the barrel is free floated and will provide the best possible accuracy so long as you do your part of feeding it and firing it properly That said there was not mention of what action, what wood, stock shape caliber etc. so the above statement is a very broad and general one. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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The rifle is a Schults & Larsen Classic 30.06 w laminated stock that is already bedded from the factory, I've already modified the barrel channel of the stock so it leaves 0.08" clearance, when i shoot it off sand bags from my concrete bench it will put maybe 3 in on hole and then some will be mainly up or down Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Ok now we are getting somewhere. Iron sights or scope? How good is the mount? Reloads or factory ammo? If they are hand loads how are they built? If factory loads are they premium or match grade? Have you tried tuning the load to the rifle? What kind of shooting platform are you using to to test the accuracy of this rifle? Many things can lead to poor accuracy www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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The mount is the original Schultz & Larsen Slide & Lock and the scope is a Zeiss Varipoint 1,5-6x42 My shooting platform is a 200 kilo concrete bench with sand bags and the ammo is mild handload with 150 grain Hornady FMJ  This is a 4 shot group with the 150 FMJ  Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Here is a picture of the factory pillar bedding, there is about 0.5 mm clearance between the recoil lug and the groove in the bedding I'm told that the bedding is made with a dummy action with a little oversize    Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Ok The action is not bed to the stock. For two reasons. 1. If it's true they used a dummy action well in my book that's not good. 2. It's only a pillar at the rear and most likely not making full contact with the action. Not being familiar with these rifles, does it only have the two guard screws or is there one further back? Set the action in the stock and see how well it fits On a well done bedding job the action should require a mild amount of pressure to seat in the stock. Not a forceful fit but just a little more then snug. Personally I'd re do the bedding job. Then work on reloads. But the thing is what kind of accuracy were you expecting? and what does the factory guaranty? Unless it's match grade everything i would not expect it to shoot better then 1.5 MOA Which is close to what you are getting now if the circles on your targets are .5" increments. Then your "mild reloads" Again how are they loaded. How well are you measuring the powder charge. Are your cases sorted and sized properly. You see to squeak out every little bit of accuracy you can out of a rifle you need to have everything you can control as consistent as possible. From when and where you shot to how you support and hold the rifle to what you feed the rifle. Everything need to be as near the same as the last from shot to shot. MAke any change and it's start all over again, new target new group. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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It’s with only two guard screws and there is a pillar both in front and rear but the front is more or less covered in fiberglass When I set the action in the stock by hand it feels like a nice fit If I give both guard screws a light torque and afterwards release the rear screw I can with a micrometer measure that the rear end of the action is lifting about 0.004” so that means the original bedding is not stress free Thanks Bjarne | |||
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That would be causing a little undue stress on the action. I don't think that is your vertical stringing problem though. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Do you know of any descriptions that tell you what the different patterns can be caused by from the shooter, rifle or ammunition? Thanks Bjarne | |||
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http://www.6mmbr.com/verticaltips.html Speedy can explain it better then I can www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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before doing anything else, check your scope for paralaxmisajustment. Place the scope on a table, pointing at a distinkt tatget at the normal shootingdistance. Then without tuching the scope. look tru it, while mooving your eye to all sides of the visible "hole". If your crosshair mooves on the target at all, you have an issue.(my guess is that you will see the crosshair mooving atleast 1" ) Thiss can easily explain your groups, caused by uneven cheekrest. On most high end european scopes, they have prioritated userfriendliness over paralaxperfection, while manny american and asian scopes have focused on extreme accurasy | |||
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Very welcome Jørgen, nice to hear from you in this discussion I’ve had this Zeiss Varipoint from my first S&L 97DL back in 2003 and the parallax has always been zeroed at 100 meter, but anyway I checked it again at my private 100 meter range and it’s still zeroed there I’ve always been able to deliver very tight groups at the range with this scope both on the S&L 97DL and my Blaser R93, but the reticle could have become loose inside so I’ll probably have to check with another scope to make sure Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Jørgen can you tell me if it's correct that the bedding is made with a dummy action with a little oversize? Thanks Bjarne | |||
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I can tell you it's not. If you take any action to a proper Smith they will use your action not a mock up of and action but your actual action and use it to bed the stock. How accurate is the mock action? How much over size? All this adds up to tolerance stacking and is bad news when it comes to bedding an action. The purpose behind glass bedding is to insure as close to 100% contact with the action. How can this be accomplished with an over sized mock up?? Grind that crap out and re bed it or accept the bedding job for what it is and just work on reloads. BTW you never mentioned the contour of you barrel. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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S&L rifles is not a gunsmith but a production of rifles here in Denmark that Jørgen has been closely related to for years, and I believe he can tell us the truth more than anyone else in here, but no matter what the answer is I’ll follow your advice in re bed the rifle as it’s current bedding job is a thorn in my flesh Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Then why didn't you contact him in the first place? _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Well I have already contacted him about the rifle but was told by a previous employee how they did the bedding job, but Jørgen know more about these rifles as he has developed them and their production methods and will know the correct answer and will not come up with an assumption Thanks Bjarne | |||
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The stock is bedded with a dummy. Where the dimentions is identical, to the productionactions, except that the recoillug on the dummy is designed to give 0.1mm of clearance in front of the recoillug. to prevent binding in asembly and disasembly. The rearpillar/cradle, and the combined frontpillar/crossbolt, is screwed onto the dummy during the factorybedding. This gives a near to stressfree bedding, and combined with the rather ridgid action, it normally gives decent accuracy, and a werry robust instalation, capable of handeling werry tough recoil. It is werry ligtly that your stock originally was installed on another rifle, and then swopped by the shop. I guess that the accuracy on your rifle is not that bad taken to concideration that the rifle is a pretty light huntingrifle with a lightcountoured huntingbarrel. Please once again check your scope for paralax, at the excact distance you are shooting at, and dont rely on what it has been on other rifles in the future, as different stockshapes, might give you more or less cheek support. Thereby allowing you to sight less centered in the scope. On the target you showed, i guess you have 3 rd in more or less the same hole, and one flyer dropping apx 1.3" Try to test the rifle with Norma Diamondline (not golden target or jagtmatch) | |||
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The real issue for me is the lack of looking at anything else as a possible issue. It seems that you are convinced the bedding job is the only source of the problem and are gathering evidence to support your opinion. That is not how the scientific method works. Please take into consideration that there are many issues that can lead to vertical stringing. Group size was never mentioned I made a guess based on the hole size. 1.5 MOA is not terrible. Especially without any tuning involved on a rifle that is not target grade. Eliminate all other possible sources then form an opinion on the conditions My head is beginning to hurt beating against this brick wall of a subject www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Sorry Jørgen I have re checked the parallax of my Zeiss Varipoint the other day, when I write zeroed at 100 meter I’m talking about the internal parallax adjustment of the scope, so that means it’s dot is stable when I move my eye up & down or side to side when looking at a target at 100 meter through my Varipoint
Another thing is that I could probably cause the inaccuracy by over tighten the action screws in the stock, what is the torque for these screws? Thanks Bjarne | |||
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My rifle is a 30.06 and I believe you can't get Diamond Line for 30.06? http://www.norma.cc/sortiments...eny=3&Rubrik=Diamond Line Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Are you sure that was bedded by S&L and not SNL? Were it mine I would dig that crap out and re-do it if for nothing more that it's looks. 'Cause it looks like crap. And if the person doing the bedding didn't have enough skill to make it look good, then I would be suspicious of his/her ability to get it right. Especially if part of the "pillar" is covered in "fiberglass". Next, don't confuse metal inserts with pillars. Pillars go all the way through the stock providing a solid footing between the receiver and bottom metal. Pillars provide more vertical stability than inserts. How about shooting a couple of pictures of the underside of that stock? Unless your action is glued to the stock, you are going to see the needle move on your dial indicator when you release the tension from the rear screw, because there is nothing to support the weight of the floating barrel. It's going to tilt. The term "stress free bedding" is not accurate. The mere act of tightening the guard screws places stress on the bedding. The whole idea behind the use of the torque wrench is having the ability to fine tune the amount of stress (torque) and then being able to repeat it. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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So i'll ask again Group size??? Barrel contour or at least muzzle diameter???? www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Sorry I don't have pictures of the worst groups but as I remember 6-7 cm, but I'll take pictures before and after the bedding job, the 4 shot group on the below picture was when barrel and bedding was with paper shim which improved Barrel contour is tapered from 19 to 15 mm and length is 545 mm / 21.5" Thanks Bjarne | |||
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www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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When I did the test the barrel was cooled down between each shot by pointing the barrel upward and leave the bolt open till it was cold again Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Devcon putty ordered a few days ago and on it's way from Scotland, got my hands on 6x 1 lb for the price of 1 lb Thanks Bjarne | |||
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Barrel heat is not the only reason a thin barrel is not conducive to good accuracy. You'r on the right track with the devcon. Get that done re test and then take the next step. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Full length or two point bedding on my Schultz & Larsen
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