What is a prewar M70? Is it different from the newer Pre 64 design. If so how do you tell the difference?

I am looking at a M70 CRF in a 264 win mag. I may end up just buying it for the action.

A pre-war M70 generally refers to one made before WWII (that was the unpleasantness betwee 1941 and 1945 between the USA,Brits,USSR, and most of the rest of the free world and Germany, Italy and Japan).

There were not many differences between the pre-war and post war M70's. The most pronounced was the shape of the rear of the receiver in the area of the tang. Early models were arcs, while later models tapered into the tang. (Or maybe it is vise versa!?!)

In 1964, Winchester changed radically the design of the rifle. Most noticeable was a change from control feed to push feed. There were other changes, but this together with the ejector were the most noticeable.

Recently, Winchester (actually US Repeating Arms Company) reintroduced the features of the pre-64 M70's in certain models of its M70's. I do not know exactly which models have the old features and which do not.

The easy way to tell if it is control feed is to look for the Mauser style extractor. You have to know the serial numbers to know which are pre-war/post war and which are pre-64/post-64; however, most dealers will tell you because the pre-64's bring a premium.

I don't quite understand your comment about the .264Win and buying it for the action. I think what you were saying was you might buy a pre-64 gun for the action (presumably to barrel it in .264). If you are going to buy a M70 to rebarrel it, I'd suggest you look for a used control feed gun of modern manufacture.

You are paying a premium for the M70 action which is nothing but one of the better Mauser 98 look-alikes. If you want a .264Win, get hold of an old M98 and have someone build you a rifle on that action. You will be much better served for your money. Ku-dude

[ 07-06-2002, 08:32: Message edited by: Ku-dude ]

Hey DLS

I have a pre war Mod 70 .it has a dog knot on the barrel ahead of the action ring
Made in 1939 .
It is a 06 Cal.
They go from $800.00 up.
You are better off going with a Good M-98 action.easy to find.

Thanks Ku-Dude,
That unpleasantness in the 40's, is that when the Germans attacked us at Pearl Harbor? just kidding. My father and I are both life VFW members, and he has told me alot about his time in Europe during WWII.

I was looking at a Control Round Feed Model 70, and it is chambered in 264 Win Mag. The barrel looks to be in sad shape. The crown was poor and looked like some rust in the bore. All in all the Barrel looked like it was shot alot and improper use of a cleaning rod. The action looked to be in pretty decent shape to my untrained eyes.

I didn't know if prewar was related to the Vietnam war in the 60's when Win. changed to push feed, then came out with the pre 64 design again later. Pre VN made rifles. But WWII makes more sense to me. Since IMHO that time frame seems to be when the best rifles were made. M96's, then M98's made into the late 30's, also including the other M98 copies like the 03's, and I guess 1917 Enfields.

The salesman at the gun store told me he could give me a REAL good deal on this rifle. If I thought the deal was good enough, I was thinking of having the action trued and rebarreled to another Caliber. Since it already has scope mounts and the bolt is already turned down. Plus it has the 3 pos. safety. Things I would have to pay an extra Few hundred $$$ to sporterize a Model 98.

I have read from several posters that prewar M70's were real nice, compared to the newer M70's. But readind up on this a little I think Win came out with the 264 WM in the late 50's?

[ 07-06-2002, 09:37: Message edited by: DLS ]

DLS,
I was being a little tongue in cheek, but not much since I saw an article the other day that indicated only a small percentage of highschool students could identify the combatants in WWII, and many of those couldn't put them on the right sides.

If you can get a control feed M70 made before the change in 64 for a really good price, go far it. Recrowning a barrel isn't very expensive, and a good cleaning with Wipe Out might turn it into a real shooter. Where the expense comes in is when you rebarrel one of these old guns. Another poster was asking recently about a source for barrels with the old contour. It seems Walther-Lothar (?) has barrels for these old M70s. However, the barrel and having it installed would be around $400, if I had to take a guess, or a little more. So you'd have that plus the cost of the rifle. On the other hand, you might have a decent shooter for the price of the rifle alone.

Most smiths will true up the action before installing a new barrel, and the charge for that would be minimal in the great scheme of things. But if you suspect that the M70 would just be an action, you can get a decent M98 action for $150. That plus your barrel and tunning would be a lot less than a custom rifle on a pre-64 M70.

Look around on gunsamerica. Heck, you might fight a .264 M70 at the right price that doesn't need smithing. I have two of the old M70's (I use to have three, but just gave a .270 away to one of my boys), and they are wonderful rifles. It is worth what you'll pay because you'll be able to give it to your son or daugther. Good luck. Ku-dude

There is just so much to learn about rifles. I appreciate all the good info that I get.

Thank's Ku-dude

DLS
You can also have that barrel rebored and rechambered to a different round. 300 Winchester magnum comes to mind pretty fast. I would have to be a belted magnum unless you would want a few turns (like 3 or 4 on the barrel thread to cut out the belt recess. This can cost considerably less than rebarreling and you keep the old contour of the barrel again considering the stock is in decent shape.

Chic Worthing

[ 07-06-2002, 22:18: Message edited by: Customstox ]

oops

[ 07-06-2002, 22:43: Message edited by: DLS ]

The pre-war M-70 had a safty the pulls backwards to take off safty, the opposite of a Pre 64 M-70...the pre-war had a clover leaf shaped tang..that's the primary difference....

Both had a dog knot in the barrel on standard grades, and the stocks are the same...You can replace the Pre War safty with a Pre-64 safty...

the pre war guns show better finish and workmanship but are a little more expensive to change over to the better forward moving safty.

If I was building myself a full blown custom, I would normally use a pre war action if one was available...They are slicker'en snot......

I much prefer the pre-war action, especially the cloverleaf tang and the slight bend in the bolt handle. The older safety looks good but is less functional (for me) than the pre-64 3-position model. I get these changed out.

Here's a pic of a battery of rifles built on pre-war actions. Top to bottom: 270, 300WM, and 338WM. If I could find another pre-war long-magnum action, I'd do a 416 Rem and be set for anything. I have a real soft spot for the pre-wars.



[ 07-09-2002, 02:45: Message edited by: ForrestB ]

To ForrestB,
Because of the heavy rains in Texas, I think it's best to send your three nice rifles to dry Arizona for safekeeping.

[ 07-11-2002, 09:31: Message edited by: Arizona Larry ]

Forrest B. : Who made these rifles? Forrest A.

Larry, thanks for the offer, but they are safe and dry for now. But it is raining outside right now. I'll keep you posted.

ForrestA, these rifles were a joint effort between Duane Wiebe and myself. I did all the tough work like unscrewing the barreled action from the original stock and sending the actions to Duane so he could do the easy stuff like doing all the metal work and making new stocks.

After all the work I did, he still refused to put my name on them along side his. To add insult to injury and he made me write checks to him all the time. Im getting a new partner.

I still think that the pre-64 modle 70 is a bigger bang forthe buck in actions. Once you have the action the money you spend is on the accessories( new barrel, custom stock, barrel and stock furnature) and not converting military rejects into rifles. Actually, the pre-64 modle 70 is ready to go as is, try this with the 98 mauser. Be prepared to really spend some bucks just getting it to the starting point of the Winchester by adding a better trigger, a modern safety for scope sights, alter the bolt handle for scope sights, Drill and tap for scope mounts, alter the feed rails for your new modern caliber of choice, recontour the receiver. I dont know of any good gunmaker that will do all of these things for the price of the modle 70 and you still have to buy the 98 action! It takes a lot less money to make a custom rifle out of any Winchester than it does a mauser.
lb404

Thank you--404.

DLS: You hit upon something on this particular rifle that you might want to be a little cautious of...if this is a Pre-War M70 action, then the .264 WinMag barrel was added on to it at a later date. And since there were no "short" action magnums when that action was made, it was probably an '06 or 270 in it's first life. When the .264 barrel was added, somebody had to open up the bolt face and mess with the rails to make make it feed the fatter cartridge right. When somebody competent does it this will all work out fine. But when done wrong, you've got a screwed up gun all the way around. I'd be a mite suspicious as to why the salesman was so hot to make a "good deal" on it...perhaps he knows it got butchered when it got rebarreled and converted over to a short magnum round.

Now, if it's a factory original .264 Magnum (therefore not a "pre-war"), that won't be the problem.

I was at a gun show awhile back and a guy had what he was purporting to be an "original" pre-war, Super Grade Model 70 in .458 Win Mag. That's a pretty good trick, seeing how the .458 Win Mag didn't come along until the late 50's! It was indeed a supergrade stock, and a pre-war action, and a .458 barrel, but no more than two of those components left the factory together and certainly not that barrel and action.

I still think that the pre-64 modle 70 is a bigger bang forthe buck in actions. Once you have the action the money you spend is on the accessories( new barrel, custom stock, barrel and stock furnature) and not converting military rejects into rifles. Actually, the pre-64 modle 70 is ready to go as is, try this with the 98 mauser. Be prepared to really spend some bucks just getting it to the starting point of the Winchester by adding a better trigger, a modern safety for scope sights, alter the bolt handle for scope sights, Drill and tap for scope mounts, alter the feed rails for your new modern caliber of choice, recontour the receiver. I dont know of any good gunmaker that will do all of these things for the price of the modle 70 and you still have to buy the 98 action! It takes a lot less money to make a custom rifle out of any Winchester than it does a mauser.
lb404

ForrestB,

Now those are three beauties. Very nice.

Will

What Will said.

They are very good looking rifles, even if the handles are on the wrong side.

I am very jealous.

As I mentioned before, Forrest, you have some great toys. Beautiful. - Dan

The one and only Model 70 that I own is a 'Transition' .375 gun built in '47. It is called a transition as it was built while they were shifting from the Pre-war to the Post-war design.

It has the cloverleaf tang and forwards disengaging saftey. The safety lever itself is odd is not 'L' shaped as it missing the vertical 'extention' on the end. This seem make it a little more difficult to find with my thumb. But not too bad.

[Had to edit the previous paragraph as I had it wrong in my original post. I must'a had my head in a warm, dark, moist hole.]

I'm going to have to go look at the bolt handle .

I think that is was a custom order as while it does have the front site and shroud it doesn't have a rear site. I speculate that the original owner used a side mounted Lyman site as it is tapped for one.

One of these days I'm going to have Chic make me a new stock. This one have been slightly modified by previous owners.

I've been trying to find another transition gun in 300 H&H. That has been difficult. I did find an '06 that was a sister to mine at a gun show once. I should'a bought it (:sound_of_kicking myself_in_butt.

Take Care,

-Steve

[ 07-12-2002, 19:18: Message edited by: Steve ]

Matt,
I've had 4 different pre64 that were opened up to a mag. case. None of them had any work on the rails and feed perfectly. I just picked a .338 that was an 06 and it feeds fine, again no rail work. I had a 30/338 rebarreled to a 25/06. The smith weld filled the bolt face and recut it. I got a new extractor from Brownells. Again no problems, feeds fine.