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Imagine for a moment that you are going to combine all of the greatest virtues of all of the rifle actions built to date into one action. What would they be? I would throw in the Mauser claw extractor and ejector for starters, perhaps the savage bolt head and button rifled barrel, the angled recoil lug bolt from a Ruger. What else?? | ||
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I would probably pass on the savage bolt head, its pinned to the bolt, I would guess the win recoil lug would win out over the ruger, but that just based on dumb cowboy logic  | |||
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WIDTH... big enough for the 500 jeffe/550 mag/55 express Mag railss.. kinda like the winchester, BUT the top of the mag both locking into place and being FAR morsubstaintial. Bolt... .850 MINIMUM In all honesty, i think the MRC PH will fit my bill.. for a bolt gun... and Butch as done everything I'd want for a double with his new round actions.... | |||
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Jeffe, will you buy me a MRC PH for Christmas, I think it would make a fine gift. | |||
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I expect I would throw in the Mauser C-ring and breeching system and extractor. As far as the other virtues, many things done to bolt action design since '98 have been features -- and not virtues. By features I mean if you can't fix it, feature it. Features have found their way into many modern bolt actions to cut manufacturing cost.The Conclusions chapter of Stuart Otteson's book The Bolt Action discusses the design alternatives available, but Stuart largely leaves the picking of the features to the reader. jim dodd | |||
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Start with a Dakota action and then call it a Winchester... | |||
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The technology to build a very strong action to whatever specs you want is available www.liquidmetalgolf.com and the best thing is that this technology could produce them by the thousand. Now who is willing to start a project using this technology? Count me as one of the earliset customers.  Good hunting! | |||
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Let's not forget integral scope mounting, maybe square bridges. A three position F.N style safety on the leftside. I have no idea how you would do it, but we're building an imaginary action so what the hell, why not.  Terry | |||
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The rifle would have to be readily, widely and conveniently available in lefthand. Scotch the button rifling and go with single-point cut riflings in a stainless barrel. The action should also be stainless. I'd also want a drop-out magazine that fits flush with the bottom of the stock. I like the idea of either Weaver or Picatinny scope mountings being integral to the design. | |||
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Must be made in 3 sizes - mini for 223 class, short for 308 size, standard for 30/06 to 300 WM, and a magnum for the big boys up to 505 Gibbs class Mauser 98 style bolt with guide rib and claw extractor Extractor modified to snap over the rim so you can close the bolt on a round in the chamber. Double square bridge with integral dovetails for Talley rings Orbendorf bolt handle Blackburn extended box magazine available for all 4 action sizes Blackburn trigger Recoil lug from M70 3 position safety on left side of bolt A lower profile ejector/bolt release (Dakota style?) | |||
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Add a 1917 Enfield bolt locking system. -Spencer | |||
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I would throw in a manual cocking mechanism. The ability to carry a round in the chamber in total safety is the cat's meow! The ability to take down and switch barrels would also be nifty - no threaded, screw-in barrels, though. - mike | |||
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Quote: Carry a round in the chamber in peril would be more like it. Anyone who does this is an idiot! I don't mind if people like this kill themselves, but it does concern me that they might kill some other innocent person | |||
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RedRover, pity you don't seem to have much experience with the manual cocking mechanisms. - mike | |||
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Terry, I hold my strong hand thumb on the right side of the right-hand action as I was trained to do so; that makes it easy to operate the M70 style safety with my right thumb. jim | |||
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Quote: unless it's a hammer gun or a springfield, the firing pin is resting on the primer... with pressure.. jeffe | |||
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Quote: Quite so, I'm definitely not advising people to decock their (regular) bolt gun, and wander around with the firing pin resting on the primer. That is not what I'm talking about at all. These days, though, there are cocking mechanisms that leave the main spring uncocked, and the firing pin retracted. Example - see the new Mauser M03 - mike | |||
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Quote: I think the Savage bolt head attributes to their accuracy, I could be wrong though. It would be tricky trying to work a claw extractor into that design. It would appear that your "cowboy logic" aint so dumb after all. Maybe we could throw in a third 45* lug bolt onto our model 70 lug just for good measure. | |||
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Quote: Integral bases, absoloutly! Its interesting to see different ideas of what is "best" and what is important to some guys. Jeffe wants it WIDER! I suppose that to a certian extent beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A few prerequsites I would add to the wish list are a fast lock time, superior gas handeling features, a fully adjustable trigger, one piece hinged bottom metal AND a fully recessed bolt head. I have no idea how we are going to accomplish all of this either though. | |||
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Mike: Sorry, I �shot from the hip� because I got the impression from your post that you were advocating a striker fashioned to enable it to be gripped by hand and lowered on to a chambered cartridge, and then re-cocked in the same way. I�ve had over thirty years of participation in running hunter training and firearms safety programs, and I have always spoken very emphatically AGAINST anyone EVER using such a procedure. The info on the Mauser 03 shown on their web site leaves me very curious. If their definition of �uncocked� really does mean that the firing pin spring is completely de-compressed, how does operating a relatively small �cocking lever� (small relative to the length of the bolt handle) fully compress it again without requiring a Herculean effort? A certain amount of firing pin impact energy is required to ensure reliable ignition, and there is no escaping this fact. Regardless of whether the system uses a strong spring and a short firing pin fall, or a weak spring and a long fall, this energy has to be somehow transferred from hand to spring. With a short lever, even if it has special, multiple cam arrangements in the system, I can�t help wondering how easily this could be accomplished. (try opening the bolt of a conventional centre fire action, gripping the bolt handle close to the bolt body instead of out at the knob) Can anyone with first-hand experience with this � or similar � rifles clarify the issue? Does the 'cocking lever' REALLY cock the rifle, or is it just another name for a safety catch? | |||
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Quote: I do understand what you're saying, but I personally love the F.N. style safety. You don't have to "UNGRIP" (word I just made up ) the rifle to disengage the safety. Just hold the rifle in the shooting position, thumb the safety (never letting go of the grip on the rifle and shoot) couldn't be simpler or faster. My absolute favorite safety! Now making it into a 3 position safety, that might be easier said than done  .Terry P.S. You thing you should all be aware of, I never miss with my virtual rifle!!!!  | |||
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My initial idea would be to have the action rotated 90 degrees and have the lockup lugs on the sides when locked up.This would reduce lower lug bearing due to sear or trigger mechanism pressure.The sides of the action would be solid near all the way back for as much support of the lugs as possible with out creating stresses on any sort of angle to bore axis. Both openings(magazine and ejection port)will be top and botom(out of line with the lockng lugs) and a deflector would contol left or right eject.The openings would be large enough to accept the largest of cases with the removable magazine controlling cartridge size and position for feeding.(this would be important as the bolt lug would have to pick up the next round for feeding.)Barrel fitment would be savage style with a locknut(so educated owners could change their own)Trigger would be adjustable for pull weight,over travel,creep and position,and different shoes available for different shapes. Firing pin would be inertia strike, allowing for having a round up the spout AND the gun decocked. Any other ideas?? | |||
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I see a lot of good ideas so far. I'd like a set of shoulders (as in the Savage 99, or as shown in Speed's Mauser book) inside the one-piece, fixed magazine box to keep bullet tips from getting bashed in recoil. It might not shift POI, but it sets my teeth on edge. Okie John. | |||
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I've never really given it a lot of thought. I've been content to simply work with what's available modifying whenever I thought it might be of some benefit. For an action for a hunting rifle I, like most people who have given it much thought, prefer a two lug action. I think I would make the lugs a bit wider than those on the M70. I'd like a 1 piece bolt. I would make the receiver ring Mauser size (1.410")and the threads would be 1 1/8x12tpi Acme. Breeching would be much the same as the Arisaka. The recoil lug would be moved to the front of the receiver ring and the guard screw moved to a position just ahead of the locking lug seats. Mauser type extractor with the undercut retention groove like the mauser. The ejector would like that on the M70 to avoid slotting the left lug. The bolt stop would be located above the stock line and pattered after the Ruger m77 with it's spring cushion. The trigger mechanism would be an over riding sear type but with a vertical engagement (or very nearly so)with the cocking piece to reduce upward deflection of the bolt. The trigger would be more compact than the M70 to minimize the stock cutout. An option for those who want a truly foolproof trigger would be a two stage military type like the Mauser or Springfield. I actually like this type of trigger on my hunting rifles. They never fail and can be very good triggers. Striker travel should be 3/8 - 1/2 inch. The rear of the bolt should be enlarged, like the mauser, to reduce the angle of the cocking cam and allow for a more robust bolt sleeve thread. I would thread the firing pin into the cocking piece just like MRC does. This works fine. The safety would be located at the tang and would lift the sear and block the trigger. The trigger guard bow would be shaped like that on the P14. I would try to incorporate 3 bedding screws into the design. I like solid bedding and the strongest possible stock attachment. I guess that's pretty close to it. In truth I'll never be likely to design or build an action and I'm pretty satisfied working with what I can get. If there were no shortcomings I would have nothing to fix. Where's the challenge in that?! By the way, a target action could be a Remington 40x 1.437" in diameter and built to closer tolerances and it would be all I would need or want. Regards, Bill. | |||
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How about having the push button pop up peep sight which older Brnos have, the integral dovetails, the 5 (or 6 with minor mods)375/458 case capacity in the mag, the controled round feed ,the forged steel constuction which it also has. Then add a 3 position wisner safety. | |||
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Quote: Red, it seems we were the victims of an all too common communications mix-up. Happens all the time. To further explore the hand cocking mechanisms, I'll resort to what I know best: the Blasers. Besides, the Blasers are the "classic" hand cockers. Blaser has built manually cocked rifles for the last 20-30 years or so. In the older Blaser bolt action rifles - models 850/88 and 840 (I think it was called, or was it 850?) - you see the effect of the manually cocking system the easiest. These rifles have tiny little bolts maybe 1-1.5" long with a 3-lug mechanism locking directly in the barrel. Because there are no springs cocked either when opening or closing the bolt, it feels very much akin to working a sewing machine when you operate the action. Very sweet sensation. The various models used different locations for their cocking levers. The model 850/88 for instance used the bolt handle as a cocking lever - although I always liked the previous model better, its cocking lever looked like a hammer (which it was not) but operated opposite, you pressed it to cock. Here is a picture of a cocked 850/88 I found on the Blaser website. Note how the bolt handle has been moved forward to cock the main spring:  Blaser also has a bit of "blurp" on their website, although illustrated with breaktop guns - but the principle is the same: Blaser, English Safety Page I don't know whether it is because the main spring is so short, that it is possible to hand cock comparatively easily?? Suffice to say, there is a certain effort involved, and some women shooters have trouble operating the rifles, until they learn the trick: make sure you cock before you have the rifle at the shoulder. I always cock in the same movement when I shoulder the rifle, with a bit of practice it is not hard at all. The manual cocking mechanisms have been continued into Blaser's R93 series, but there the system is combined with a straight pull locking system, which makes it less comparable to a traditional turn bolt action, and thus less obvious to use as an illustration. But the principle is exactly the same - the main spring is only cocked just before the shot, and the firing pin does not rest on the primer when the spring is uncocked. Does this make sense, or have I managed to completely confuse the issue?? Btw, Blaser also uses the manual cocking system in their breaktop guns. When I operate my K77 single shot rifle, it opens and closes totally without effort, because no cocking of springs is involved. Very sweet. The K77 cocking lever requires a fair bit of effort, something Blaser has rectified in their later models such as the K95. Coming from a Central European background, where set triggers are the norm rather than the exception, Blaser also tried to get rid of the set triggers (with their safety problems) and yet still cater to the tastes of the European shooting public and their much lighter trigger pulls. Blaser was the first manufacturer to come up with non-set triggers for combined guns that would reach almost set trigger weight values of maybe 1-1.5 lbs. The trigger on my K77 has got to be one of the best triggers of all times, it would be a tough choice between it and my Jewells. It breaks like glass, with absolutely minimal movement. Sadly, Blaser went to another trigger system for their current production guns, and although they still break really well, there is a bit of movement after the sear has released. I'll get off my soapbox now, otherwise I could go on all day... - mike | |||
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