To all concerned:

I'm somewhat familiar with weapons and relading but this situation has me stumped.

About 10 years ago a friend of mine was shooting a model 1911 semi automatic pistol. The caliber was .45 ACP. The ammunition was G.I. issue. He put a loaded shell into the receiver closed the slide and then inserted the clip. When he "slammed the clip home" the pistol discharged sending a bullet into a railroad tie. That in itself is unusual but not tottaly unexplanable. What has me and my friend confused is the primer is still intact. There is no mark whatsoever (that I can see) on the primer. His is a wise gentleman so he kept the casing with the unfired primer, a casing with a spent primer and a live round from the lot of ammunition.

I thank you in advance for any and all comments or opinions.

Hypothesis:

The inertia of the slide slamming home drove the primer anvil backward, igniting the priming compound.

George

Well I'm just grasping for straws here to find an explanation and the best I come up with was the ammo or the firearm extremely hot in temperature and it "cooked off" when the magazine was slammed home?
Or did the powder deteriorate to a volatile unstable point?

quote:

The inertia of the slide slamming home drove the primer anvil backward, igniting the priming compound.

My first thought as well. However an the third read the slide was closed before the mag was slammed home

quote:

Originally posted by SWPAhunter:
To all concerned:

I'm somewhat familiar with weapons and relading but this situation has me stumped.

About 10 years ago a friend of mine was shooting a model 1911 semi automatic pistol. The caliber was .45 ACP. The ammunition was G.I. issue. He put a loaded shell into the receiver closed the slide and then inserted the clip. When he "slammed the clip home" the pistol discharged sending a bullet into a railroad tie. That in itself is unusual but not tottaly unexplanable. What has me and my friend confused is the primer is still intact. There is no mark whatsoever (that I can see) on the primer. His is a wise gentleman so he kept the casing with the unfired primer, a casing with a spent primer and a live round from the lot of ammunition.

I thank you in advance for any and all comments or opinions.

How do you know the primer is unfired? How did your friend load the first round. Obviously he did not rack the slide to load from the magazine so did he lower the slide onto the round in the chamber. Possible it was a high primer and the slide was not fully in battery until he "slammed the clip home' which may have dropped the slide on to a high primer enough to fire the cartridge.

Powder does not ignite with shock as can be attested by the thousands of rounds drop on the ground every year without incident.

Admittedly would be rare to have a high GI primer but the primer has to have fired to ignite the powder.

One of the problems I've heard of recently is to 'insert the primer to be flush with the head of the case' NO ,seat the primer all the wayto the bottom of the primer hole as this squeeses the anvil against the primer to sensitize the primer .

High primer slam-fire hang-fire? Round popped off coincidentally with insertion of the magazine?

quote:

Originally posted by SWPAhunter:
To all concerned:

I'm somewhat familiar with weapons and relading but this situation has me stumped.

About 10 years ago a friend of mine was shooting a model 1911 semi automatic pistol. The caliber was .45 ACP. The ammunition was G.I. issue. He put a loaded shell into the receiver closed the slide and then inserted the clip. When he "slammed the clip home" the pistol discharged sending a bullet into a railroad tie. That in itself is unusual but not tottaly unexplanable. What has me and my friend confused is the primer is still intact. There is no mark whatsoever (that I can see) on the primer. His is a wise gentleman so he kept the casing with the unfired primer, a casing with a spent primer and a live round from the lot of ammunition.

I thank you in advance for any and all comments or opinions.

So he's a movie buff and do all the stupid stuff the Magnum and others do?
Why does he need to slam the magazine home, has it been run over by a car and is so crooked it does'nt fit anymore?

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:


So he's a movie buff and do all the stupid stuff the Magnum and others do?
Why does he need to slam the magazine home, has it been run over by a car and is so crooked it does'nt fit anymore?

Well, semi autos are actually designed to be fed with the full force of the return spring and magazines should be knocked home with reasonable authority to let the mag latch fully engage and settle the rounds in the mag. I know people who do baby the mags or the first round into the gun, but it's sort of redundant as the rest of the rounds in the magazine will be going in at full force. On top of that, spoon feeding it can lead to other problems.

Why it had the uncontrolled round in the first place will probably always remain a mystery. I am quite certain that the people who make the primers probably know exactly what happened, but because of liability and (just because) they would never divulge the information. I imagine their response to a question like that would be purely defensive and they would want to get the "incident round" just to get it out of the system. After many years of doing warranty for most of the major manufacturers I know exactly how that game is played. I've been the guy standing on the other side of the counter that represents the manufacturer.

Dane
When I am operating semi auto pistols and AR15's I always slam the magazine home and let the slide slam forward.
My opinion is the firearm better operate that way because if you were under duress and really needed that gun you wouldn't do it any other way and it better function.
I've also found if I baby the magazine or the slide shit happens like magazine falls out after first shot or won't fire because slide is not quite closed etc...

quote:

When I am operating semi auto pistols and AR15's I always slam the magazine home and let the slide slam forward.My opinion is the firearm better operate that way because if you were under duress and really needed that gun you wouldn't do it any other way and it better function.I've also found if I baby the magazine or the slide shit happens like magazine falls out after first shot or won't fire because slide is not quite closed etc...

If I understand your post, the slide was put in battery without firing and the gun discharged afterward when the magazine was forcefully inserted. You're right; that is odd. I can see where a worn sear might let the hammer go with a sudden jolt but that would leave a firing pin dent in the primer.

If there was no mark on the primer it seems it had to be an unstable primer waiting for an excuse to go bang, or (hard to believe) a static electric discharge in just the right spot.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
If I understand your post, the slide was put in battery without firing and the gun discharged afterward when the magazine was forcefully inserted. You're right; that is odd. I can see where a worn sear might let the hammer go with a sudden jolt but that would leave a firing pin dent in the primer.

If there was no mark on the primer it seems it had to be an unstable primer waiting for an excuse to go bang, or (hard to believe) a static electric discharge in just the right spot.

Or, retrieving the wrong empty case from the ground...

Snellstrom and Rod are absolutely correct. You should, as a matter of course, give the magazine a good smack to ensure it is fully seated after insertion. Same type thing with the slide. Either pull it fully back and let it go, or as a minimum depress the slide stop and allow the slide to close totally under the recoil spring force. The former is preferred since you actually get more forward force from it.

quote:

Originally posted by Quick Karl:


Or, retrieving the wrong empty case from the ground...

The odds of picking up an empty casing with no firing pin indent, in the primer, off the ground, at a gun range, are simply incalculable !

Thank you for the vaulable reponses. After reading the post I have to think that the cause was an unstable primer.

while we will never know for sure what happened, it gives some credence to the reason why you should always point the weapon down range. At all times!!!

Thanks again for the responses to a situation that has me puzzled. I can honestly say that at the end of the day, I'm a bit wiser.

Thank you, my friends.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:

quote:

Originally posted by Quick Karl:

Or, retrieving the wrong empty case from the ground...

The odds of picking up an empty casing with no firing pin indent, in the primer, off the ground, at a gun range, are simply incalculable !

Probably close to the same odds of a 1911 going off with a round in the chamber while slamming a magazine home and leaving no indentation or mark "whatsoever" on the primer.

As far as the correct case is concerned, it should be a simple matter to determine if an undented primer has, in fact, been fired. Depriming the case would settle the question.

The pressure and heat from the powder burning would have detonated the primer even if the round had been a cook off. It's probably a safe bet that some sort of defect in the primer or in the way the primer was seated was the cause of the discharge. You would have to fire a serious number of rounds in a hurry to get a 1911 to cook off.

My personal experience
Some years ago I was shooting a 22lr pistol at a range and I was hit in the face with an object fairly hard, which caused my right eye to swell and close, bleeding I went to my truck and checked my eye in the mirror to ascertain if I was hit in the eye. I still had my vision and after I calmed down I check my face in the area of my eye and found a small puncture wound in the eye brow. Since all was good I figured a ricochet of some sort.
Some time latter I noticed a small lump in my eye socket on the top of my eye. I spoke to my Doctor who told me if it wasn't causing a problem leave it be, which I did.
Years latter while diagnosing a neck injury I was required to have an MRI which the physician asked If I had any metal in my head neck area. I explained what happened and he ordered an Xray. Now the xray showed what I was positive was a primer and the image was clear enough to show no firing pin denting meaning to me it was live. I had surgery to remove it and it was a small pistol or rifle primer cup, ho anvil and it was not dented . Now this primer was shot back at me at the same instance that I shot my pistol, I initially thought the pistol had blown up, but it did not. That told me it came back at a high velocity

This tells me that my bullet impacted a live round causing it to explode shooting a primer back at me probably the path of lease resistance, I assume the powder in that cartridge burned the primer chemical forcing the anvil to shoot out

I have this primer cup, since my cousin did the surgery. The primer cup was encapsulated with cartilage
Now if my diagnosis is correct then an impact of some sort could cause a detonation, now a GI issue has a crimped primer reducing the probability of a high primer slam fire, secondly if the slide was forward in battery the bullet in the mag would have no contact with the chambered round ????