015" headspace on factory ammo

21 October 2023, 11:26

Bought some 8x57 fmj ammo to fire in my military 98"s.
I read on another forum about a case head separation using the same ammo, so I checked it in a few of my rifles and found it had 013" to 015" headspace!
Would this situation be acceptable for factory ammo tolerances???

Now all my rifles have gauged chambers so I know they are in spec.

To double check I tried 3 other brands of factory UPB and factory ammo which has around 003" to 004" headspace and a full length sized case has 007" headspace.

I was planning on pulling the bullets (boat tail) and re-seating them to jamb the rifling, trouble is the throats are too long. I even tried flat base 195gn but couldn't reach the lands.
Will try the same procedure with one of my hunting 8mm rifles next.

Anyway going to complain to the LGS & see what happens. Fully anticipating the glazed look I'll get there though ha ha.

21 October 2023, 19:28

slivers

quote:
Originally posted by metal:
Bought some 8x57 fmj ammo to fire in my military 98"s.
I read on another forum about a case head separation using the same ammo, so I checked it in a few of my rifles and found it had 013" to 015" headspace!
Would this situation be acceptable for factory ammo tolerances???

Now all my rifles have gauged chambers so I know they are in spec.

To double check I tried 3 other brands of factory UPB and factory ammo which has around 003" to 004" headspace and a full length sized case has 007" headspace.

I was planning on pulling the bullets (boat tail) and re-seating them to jamb the rifling, trouble is the throats are too long. I even tried flat base 195gn but couldn't reach the lands.
Will try the same procedure with one of my hunting 8mm rifles next.

Anyway going to complain to the LGS & see what happens. Fully anticipating the glazed look I'll get there though ha ha.

The current SAAMI cartridge drawing for the 8 x 57mm cartridge headspace is 1.8786"max , minus .007"for min . I'd complain to the manufacturer of the ammo. Most who sell guns and ammo have no clue. A quick calculation from the SAAMI drawings shows that if the chamber is a max headspace and the cartidge at minimum there could be .013" difference. Compounding of tolerances.

21 October 2023, 19:34

Duane Wiebe (CG&R)

In the 8 x57, I found that European gages seem to be on the generous end of the scale..just makes things interesting!

21 October 2023, 19:47

dpcd

Just shoot them! The extractor will hold them back; I have fired 7.62 NATO ammo from 30-06 and 7.65 Argentine; what do you think the headspace was on those? Inches.
And what sli said above; SAAMI thinks it is ok.
And never use the "jam the bullet into the rifling" method with full power loads.
Hell I had a Spanish 43 once that had so much extra headspace that I lengthened the firing pin in order to fire it. No issues noted. And that was with Portuguese heavy 198 grain ball; not a light load.

22 October 2023, 03:17

metal

quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Just shoot them! The extractor will hold them back; I have fired 7.62 NATO ammo from 30-06 and 7.65 Argentine; what do you think the headspace was on those? Inches.
And what sli said above; SAAMI thinks it is ok.
And never use the "jam the bullet into the rifling" method with full power loads.
Hell I had a Spanish 43 once that had so much extra headspace that I lengthened the firing pin in order to fire it. No issues noted. And that was with Portuguese heavy 198 grain ball; not a light load.

Cool, no need to worry. Just shoot any old cartridge in your gun she’ll be right.
Just make sure it’s a 98.

22 October 2023, 04:23

Hipshoot

I think I would DUMP the brass afterwards!
Hip

22 October 2023, 05:26

dpcd

The brass makes good long 45 ACP brass when you are done. Done it hundreds of times, on the MG range; don't tell anyone. We had lots of ammo, as in, pallets of it.

22 October 2023, 05:26

Bobster

The mfg may have wanted it to chamber in most any 8x57. I agree with the previous poster, it's a one shot deal at best.

22 October 2023, 07:24

dpcd

Depends on the pressure; reference Ackley's tests that showed up to about 45K psi, you don't need any bolt support; the cartridge case holds all the pressure. So, for example, a US produced 8mm cartridge case will be fine. The primer will back out the .015.

22 October 2023, 19:13

dpcd

And consider that SAAMI allows .015 tolerance on all belted mags from a min cartridge to a max chamber. So it must not be all that important.
I, personally, cut chambers to barely close on a go gauge, or the customer's sized case, but we're not talking about that.

02 November 2023, 04:21

Atkinson

fire form the new cases! I have a 1903 MS with .014 headspace like 95% of them do, I use a light Grinage of Hercules innew brass, depending on the gun, a dose or corn meal and a wax cap to fire form then neck size for 5 to 9 firing's then start
over by annealing or just chunk them all and start over with new brass..Not a problem as I dont shoot it that much, and there is no other option to do otherwise, not to mention they are an absolutely awesome little gunS,

SEVERAL LOADING BOOKS MAKE MENTION OF THIS BTW

19 November 2023, 13:54

metal

Here’s what happened when this crap ammo was fired.
Buyer beware.

19 November 2023, 21:37

Bill Leeper

Lubricate the cases before firing. Just a light oil will do. Regards, Bill

23 November 2023, 22:45

Atkinson

A lot of grief can be saved by trimming new brass, Ive found 8x57 and 06 PPU new brass is long for my JP Sauers and firing locked up bolt pretty snug. the Sauers have bench rest chambers btw.

23 November 2023, 23:43

jeffeosso

the incipit casehead separation concerns me more

24 November 2023, 00:18

dpcd

Ok, you didn't say you wanted to reload the cases; I thought you wanted to know if they were safe to fire.
No ammo maker wants you to reload their brass; this one definitely does not and insures it by making the brass come apart after each shot. Which is also, not dangerous as many think. It is the release of gas, that becomes dangerous.
You will need to pull the bullets, neck them up to 375 caliber, and size back down; making a false shoulder to headspace on.
Forget about the corn meal thing; that won't work; the firing pin will push the case into the chamber anyway. And you already tried the jam bullet into rifling technique. Oil the brass technique will work, but I never recommend that because someone will invariably slather grease all over their ammo and bulge the bore with it.
I make neck sizer plugs for a Lee universal die, which will make any neck any size you want. False/new shoulder.

24 November 2023, 00:18

metal

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the incipit casehead separation concerns me more

Exactly, and this is not from some careless reloader.
This is once fired factory ammo with 013” headspace.
I returned the 3 boxes of ammo to my LGS, they gave me 3 boxes of PPU to try.
It has 003” headspace in my rifle, and I can reload them.
I’m happy.

24 November 2023, 00:36

dpcd

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
I am sure it is Thanksgiving in Australia too, isn't it? When the Pilgrims invited the Indians over for dinner.

24 November 2023, 01:17

metal

No we don’t have it but give it time.

29 November 2023, 21:53

Atkinson

Crap ammo or a crap chamber?? I suspect its the headspace not the ammo..

30 November 2023, 00:12

metal

It’s the ammo…

30 November 2023, 12:48

brnomauser

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Crap ammo or a crap chamber?? I suspect its the headspace not the ammo..

quote:
Originally posted by metal:

To double check I tried 3 other brands of factory UPB and factory ammo which has around 003" to 004" headspace and a full length sized case has 007" headspace.

30 November 2023, 19:48

SDH

quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Just shoot them! The extractor will hold them back; I have fired 7.62 NATO ammo from 30-06 and 7.65 Argentine; what do you think the headspace was on those? Inches.
And what sli said above; SAAMI thinks it is ok.
And never use the "jam the bullet into the rifling" method with full power loads.
Hell I had a Spanish 43 once that had so much extra headspace that I lengthened the firing pin in order to fire it. No issues noted. And that was with Portuguese heavy 198 grain ball; not a light load.

Now that's some classic internet advice!

02 December 2023, 03:50

sambarman338

quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
I am sure it is Thanksgiving in Australia too, isn't it? When the Pilgrims invited the Indians over for dinner.

We had it last year. We usually eat turkey at Christmas (or 'Christmas in July', when it's cooler) but had a redundant bird in the freezer that had missed both, so we decided to embrace your festival. Our early settlers (convicts) almost starved the second year, too, but no good came from that.