Yeah, I know Krieger make a superior barrel, but...

I've got a 1952 model 70 I'm going to build another 9.3x62 on. I'm going with either a #4 Douglas CM or #3 Krieger CM, both have 12" twists. Anyway, The job will cost me about an extra $100 to go with the Krieger. Anyway, this is a meat-n-potatoes 9.3x62 (for 300 yds max shots), not a ultra long distance dialer, so I am wondering if the Krieger's fine tuning is or is not worth the extra $100.

The Krieger would a bit lighter, which may or may not tip my hand... hmmmmm

A pac-nor would split the cost difference, but I've had minor issues arise with the guy that does their chambering, so I'm a bit reluctant to go with them anymore...

Anyway, your thoughts please...

You might want to look at Lothar Walther he is cheaper and their lead time is a much shorter. I just talked to him on a 9.3 barrel Saturday.

I've never had a complaint with Douglas....never...and delivery has usually been within a week-10 days.

Yeah, I'm considering a LW barrel as well. You know where I can get a list of their contour dimensions. They have something on their website, but it seems to be mauser focussed.

I spent an hour talking with him on Saturday. The website is old and being updated. He has a lot of custom contours programed into his CNC machines, that are not listed on the website. I know he has an original pre 64 contour programed, and he has a Holland and Holland profile programed as well. The lead time is around 3 weeks, vrs Krieger's 14 weeks they quoted me on a 9.3 last week.

Vapodog, there is nothing wrong with Douglas XX barrels, I have them on a couple of rifles and they shoot very well. I think Douglas barrels are one of the underrated barrel companies myself. My only complaint with Douglas is the outside finish is a little rough which offsets the cheaper cost of his barrels by the time you get them finished.

All I can say is, the best builders of custom hunting rifles I know of use, as their first choice, Kreiger barrels. The best and most accurate custom hunting rifles I've ever owned wear Kreiger barrels. So there's no question as to which one I'd go with. Considering how long a barrel usually lasts, saving a whole $100 by going with Douglas instead of Kreiger is an act of reverse-economy.........

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Originally posted by allen day:
Considering how long a barrel usually lasts, saving a whole $100 by going with Douglas instead of Kreiger is an act of reverse-economy.........
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I agree Kreiger would be my choice.

Cheers
/JOHAN

The choice of the 9.3X62 first off is a great caliber. It kicks like a 30.06 and has the punch of a .375 H&H damn near. But, you mentioned it was going to be a meat and potatoes rifle. And, I'm guessing you won't put over 2,000 rounds through it in a life time, it being a larger caliber and all. If I'm wrong here I stand corrected. However, if the case be that the 2,000 to 3,000 rounds is about right a Douglas barrel will due the job. The standard Douglas barrel on the M1As used in high power competion show excellent results time after time. One note here: The older you get, usually in the early to mid-forties, the more help you need account of deminishing eyesight. Thus, if you need to hit a knat's behind at 500 yards well....A 9.3X62 caliber is not limited to 250 or 300 yards but the old 286 grain bullet drops like a lead balloon in the long range department. But again, it's an EXCELLENT all-round caliber. Any questions of it's ability you might ask Mike Starling who posts here on AR. He took some mighty fine trophies in Africa recently. Good shooting! Mike

I'm thinking there are few people that could shoot well enough in the field the see theoretical accuracy improvement of the Krieger over the Douglas. That said, I've heard it claimed the top notch barrels are more likely to shoot all bullets well, and not be so load sensitive.

If I knew for a fact that the Krieger would shoot accurately with a wider selection of bullets, then I'd definately dropped the extra $100. You'll spend at least that much on componets fiddling with a picky barrel vs one that shoots the first bullet and powder you try, not to mention the value of you time.

Myself, I'd have no problem putting a Douglas barrel on a hunting rifle.

As a matter of fact, most of the time I do....

I'd rather put the extra $100 in more bullets; practicing with them will make you a much better shooter than the small potential difference in barrels.

In the field especially, you'll never notice, or be able to take advantage of, the "maybe possibility" (how's that for good grammar? ) of a barrel that might squeak out another 1/4 MOA better accuracy.

I have rifles with Douglas, Shilen, and Hart barrels on them. Other than the Hart barrelled 40-X, etc, that is set up to actually take advantage of that tiny bit more, I couldn't tell you which was which in a hunting situation.

As a side note, I have a Douglas barrel on my long range match rifle. It has no problem shooting NRA Master level scores at 600 yards. If you need more than that, on a hunting rifle, you're a far better shot than me...

I prefer Krieger, however, only shooting to 300 yards makes a difference too.

If you have any issue with a Douglas barrel, ie, you cannot work up a decent load or the rifle seems innaccurate, they will send another barrel.

Yet, I believe there is minimal risk of a bad barrel from Krieger anyway. If it's only a $100 difference, I'm going with the Krieger.

To Allen: Just a note, Jim Borden is a fine gunsmith and to my knowledge, he uses Hart, Lilja, and Spencer barrels. I believe he'll use a Krieger if requested but his rifles are tack drivers.

I have not personally noticed a difference with my 270's. Each has a different barrel but same contour. One is a Krieger, one a Hart, one has a Broughton-Richards, and the other is a Lilja.

The good thing about a Krieger is that when it is finally shot out, it will not shoot anything well usually...letting the shooter know, it's time for a new tube.

Another very premium barrel is Lilja Barrels, my best custom shooters which are not really "Hunting Rifles" use them. But I will chime in with Cold Bore on this these are set up as accuracy guns and have very little to do with hunting rifles.

I still want a Krieger barrel, but I am not going to do it on the 9.3x62, I am going to save that for a long barreled 6.5 or 7mm later on and a different rifle action.

No Allen Krieger is on my wish list I just like how Lothar can provide me with the custom contours and on this rifle that is important to me. I am sure Krieger could do the same and as a matter of fact they are set up to do both standard and 375 H&H pre 64 winchester profiles when I talked to them. And I really like cut rifles barrels. But I want to hunt with my 9.3 this fall and if I wait on the Krieger that is guaranteed not to happen.

I appeciate all the thoughts, and I too have used, well, dozens of various aftermarket barrels from makers such as Hart, Douglas, Pac-nor, Shilen, Lilja, Shaw, and on down the line. Of these Lilja and Hart impressed me most. However, I have a 257 Roberts with a ultralight pac-nor barrel that is freakishly accurate. I've found CM Douglas and Shilens to be a bit fussy, though capable of 0.5 MOA with good (and sometimes hard earned) loads.

A LW is certainly a possibility, perhaps in the 375 H&H model 70 contour. I think the standard model 70 is too thin. However, I can't recall seeing a 375 contour in person (at least for a long time) - how much bigger is it than the standard? I'd like to keep this rig this side of boat anchor. If it's going to total up at more than 9 lbs, I am not interested. Anyone?

schromf:

Which LW are you going with and for what action?

Yeah, a 9.3 ain't a 300 yard rifle to begin with, is it? I've used Douglas barrels and they are fine, a bit heavier than I would like, but have fast turn around.

But then my long shots are 30 yards, so what difference could it make?!!

9.3x62,

The rifle action is a BRNO Zkk 600.

I am going to use a custom contour. I have a draft of the profile that I need to send to my smith, but I just haven't had the time to get it drawn up yet, but I started it this afternoon, and should have it done in the next day or so. I want a integrated rear sight island on my rifle, so thats where the dirty details are coming in. The plan is right now to have the barrel profiled but leave around 2.5-3" of full diameter metal to mill the sight island properly. I might leave a recoil lug on the bottom also, so I can crossbolt it. Another unsettled detail.

Sights are still an issue but for iron sights I am planning on using New England Custom Gun, folding express on the rear and a band front sight. The optics side is a little tougher and I have done some homework on mounts but choices on dovetail mounts for these are limited, I really want a quick disconnect, I looked at the EAW mounts but they are real proud of those. So I have more work to do there or post so info seek here.

Anyway here are some pics of what I am starting with:





I haven't as yet done anything with it, its in the same shape I bought it. I have it being boxed and shipped to a smith as we speak.

Edit for fixing pics:

I have two Douglas XX Premium Airgage barrels in sporter weight (308 and 223) that shoot very well. I don't think you could go wrong. They will both shoot .5 MOA with loads that they like. Having said that I shoot Kriegers and Lilja's on my match rifles for the simple reason they break in quicker. Of all the different barrels I have tried, I haven't had a bad one yet from any custom barrel manufacturer that I have used. I haven't shot a Shilen or a PacNor. Probably won't I am happy with what I have been using and will continue to use them.

RBRN

Barring constraints such as time that definately point to one over the other. I would ask the different barrel makers how many barrels they've made in .366 cal, and go with the one with the most 9,3 experience. I have a feeling that might be the Lothar Walter. In 22 cal rimfire it's tough to beat a Shilen Ratchet rifled barrel. In a 22 centerfire Lilja and Krieger have been proven superb. In 30 cal I would lean towards Obermeyr, or Krieger, but in 9,3??....DJ

9.3X62,
Quote = "A pac-nor would split the cost difference, but I've had minor issues arise with the guy that does their chambering, so I'm a bit reluctant to go with them anymore..."
I've been considering going with a Pac Nor barrel, but you have me curious. What were the "Minor Issues with the Chambering Guy? Godsdog.

Godsdog:

I've had them do 8 or so barrel jobs for me over the past handful of years. My complaint is mostly about headspacing - a 257 Roberts and a 284 I had done came back too tight, as in too tight for factory ammo to chamber without significant effort. I mean snug is one thing, but too tight is just plain problematic.

In later jobs, I specifically asked them to be more generous with their headspacing, and they were accomodating.

I also got a job back once, involving a model 70 PF, which came back to me with a roughed-up extractor (?), which I had to have fixed by my local smith. I also recall getting a 721 or 722 back that was suppose to have had its lugs lapped, but clearly this had not been done. This was the last straw for me. No major complaints, just enough small things to make me worry that their attention to detail is not all that great. Anyway, I take my business elsewhere now...

Anyway, barring these issues, I have been very pleased with the barrels themselves (after making the necessary fixes), all of which shoot at least MOA and most of which do noticeably better than that with good loads, even those with very light contours.

Anyway, just reporting my experience.

In addition to the other variables discussed, I know for a fact that should you decide to sell the rifle later and it has a Kreiger barrel that it will bring more money than a Douglas barreled rifle. I have over 25 Kreiger barreled rifles and if I do my part they will shoot extremely well. I have used Pac-Nor on three and they shoot well enough but not as well as the Kreiger. The Walther barrels I have shoot very well. The only complaint I have is that the barrel steel is very dense, it weighs more than a similar contoured barrel from Kreiger. I had a 257 Wby barrel that weighed 3/4 pound more than a Kreiger. That made the rifle balance poorly and I replaced it with a Kreiger of the exact length and contour and it balances beautifully. Just My observation.]
On a sad note the Kreiger company, I THINK, had been reorganized and John is not available the way he once was, to talk with. I have ordered over 50 barrels from him in the past and on each order I was able to talk to him personally. NOT NOW!!!!!! It took 7 months to receive the .510 barrel blank for my 500 Jeffery, It took 6 months for my .366 barrel and it came as a full billet not a contoured blank as specified, and my 404 Jeffery barrel is past 10 months on the order and is in barrel limbo. I believe in his barrels but I too am getting weary of waiting for the production. For my 6.5x 65 RWS I am using a Douglas. Not because it is as good only because it is available.

I have barrels by kreiger,schneider,mclennon.gaillard and hart.All show very comparable accuracy but the schneider and gaillard seem to foul slightly less than the others.

Well, i would liekly go with the Douglas for what you are doing here. And this is coming form a guy who mainly uses Ktrieger or Lilja on my own rifles. When some one wants me to barrel an action for them, I ask them what they are wanting to do with it. For cases such as yours, I usually reccomend a Douglas or the standard PacNor barrel. It will do all you need to do. And if you do sell it, I have bnever seen people get an extra $100 for it if it has a Krieger instead of a Douglas. Just my observations over the past few years

Well, the wait for a Krieger sounds like it will be the deciding factor. I'm just not that patient...

I wonder what kind of wait a Lilja would be...

Hmmm....

Thanks for all the replies.

Just received an email from Dan today on my .338 fluted barrel that was ordered on 15 Dec. Dan says that he is running 8 to 10 weeks right now, so I will probably see mine about this time next month.

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I wonder what kind of wait a Lilja would be

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I only waited 5 weeks for my Gaillard barrel and it has proven to be just as accurate as my kreiger.It also fouled less than my kreiger.

http://www.shootingpaul.netfirms.com/Gaillard.html

I got my Pac-nor in aprox 4 weeks maby a little less. I didnt pay real close att. to dates. But it was fast. Mine is a .375 H&H #4.5 countor. allen

I ordered and received my Lila in about 9 weeks, just as promised. My last Krieger was a little longer, but, not sure if that would deter me. Quality is Quality!

Huntr

9.3x62,
I also had a '52 vintage M70 in 30/06 and took a different approach in getting to 9.3. I had the original bbl bored to 9.3, 1:12 twist and rechambered to 9.3x64. Danny Pedersen in Prescott, AZ did the work. Used it to take a nice gemsbok last year.

Don't you find that contour to be a bit too light for the 9.3 bore?

What did Dan charge for this?

Thanks.