I was involved in a lively discussion a couple of weeks ago in a Namibian camp regarding safe carry. The PH's instruct clients to close the bolt on a live round with the trigger pulled so as to avoid cocking. They assured me this was safe because the firing pin is not on the primer. I assured them that it was indeed on the primer, and proved it by putting a piece of tape on a spent case and following their method. That caused some real consternation.

Now the question is, just how safe, or unsafe, is their method? How safe is it compared to using a Mauser/Winchester type safety, or a Remington style trigger safety?

I hope I've not knocked the hornet's nest off the tree.
Brice

Unsafe enough that you can do this- if the gun has a hard rubber,steel, plastic, or other firm buttpad you can chamber a round and thump the gun down hard on its butt and make the round go off. Point out the gun does not have to hit on the buttplate, if the person stumbled and fell forward with the muzzle hitting a rock, or backwards with the receiver hitting a rock or stump it can have the same result.

If you want to try this I'd suggest using just a primed case, but still keep your head below the muzzle level!

Mark,
I agree that it is possible to make the firing pin impact the primer with sufficient force to cause ignition. The question is, is this method of carry safer than relying on the safety? I am inclined to go with the safety, but I do think the Mauser type, which actually captures the cocking piece, is more reliable than a trigger safety. Your thoughts?

Just operationally alone it's crazy, IMHO.

So much can go wrong. And not just from an inadvertent firing pin strike (whether aided or unaided by application of a jarring force).

Pulling the trigger can easily be mis-timed, especially when the operator is under stress.

I don't believe in pulling the trigger with a round in the chamber under any circumstances - other than when I am intentionally firing the weapon - with all the standard gun-handling safeguards that entails.

IMHO, the Mauser type safety is absolutely the safest.

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
The PH's instruct clients to close the bolt on a live round with the trigger pulled so as to avoid cocking. They assured me this was safe because the firing pin is not on the primer.

Now the question is, just how safe, or unsafe, is their method? How safe is it compared to using a Mauser/Winchester type safety, or a Remington style trigger safety?

I hope I've not knocked the hornet's nest off the tree.
Brice

That is just ludicrous! These PH's obviously don't understand the basic function of bolt action firearms. Of course the firing pin is resting on the primer. However, although I have never tried it, I'm not sure you can fire a primer by the above mentioned method. Not easily anyway. I think it might require more of an impact than is generated by dropping the weapon.

I have manipulated many primers over the years, in most every manner, mostly jammed, live rounds and have only had them "GO" when hit by a hacksaw, or ignited by a moderate, direct blow. While it might make a pretty neat experiment, common sense tells me that walking around in the field with the firing pin resting on a live primer is probably not the safest way to carry a gun. AT some point you are going to have to lift the handle to cock the gun so why not be really safe and carry the gun with the chamber empty. Now that would be the safe and sporting thing to do.

BTW the Mauser, Winchester and Remington safeties are disconnect type safeties and not blockers. The Mauser and Winchester 70 safeties capture and restrain the firing pin, while the Remington safety physically lifts the sear off the trigger lever. All 3 however rely on a good trigger return spring to keep them from accidentally going off when the safeties are released.

Westpac,
Thanks for the info regarding the Rem safety system. I guess I need to take a close look at one of my M700's.

Not to be argumentative, but the problem with chambering a round when needed is that it makes a good deal of noise. It is my practice to chamber a round when beginning a stalk, and carry with the safety on and muzzle ALWAYS in a safe direction.

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
...chambering a round when needed is that it makes a good deal of noise. It is my practice to chamber a round when beginning a stalk...

Agreed, on the rack in the bakje the bolt should be closed on an empty chamber but the magazine can be full. When you dismount load the chamber, turn on the safety, and watch your muzzle.

Striker down on a live round is just plain scary!

Hunting dangerous game requires a higher degree of consciousness than other forms of shooting because the rifles are usually always carried locked and loaded. It is imperative that the triggers and safeties of any weapon going into the field be checked and service prior to embarking to ensure that they will hold when engaged or released, and that they can't be jarred off. Save the 2.5 lb triggers for the range or those situations where you aren't likely to be startled or lose control of the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
Hunting dangerous game requires a higher degree of consciousness than other forms of shooting

I'm not sure I would make that blanket statement. People who employ firearms in a tactical role, or even those who carry a firearm all day, everyday for personal protection may to take exception to your statement.

I guess I'm not even sure what you mean by consciousness. If you mean concentration or focus or marksmanship ability then your statement is really wrong.

You aren't related to my first wife by chance? You read things just like she did.

What I meant is what I said. A person hunting dangerous game does so at a hire level of consciousness, or, awareness to those around them than someone shooting targets because their rifles are usually always hot. Carrying a weapon in a tactical situation or for personal protection falls under the "dangerous game" heading. Let them take exception to that.

i know nothing of African hunting....other than you need a gun with a big hole in the end. about the same size hole as in the shotgun that guy rested on his foot..... things like that are accidents waiting to happen.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Westpac:
A person hunting dangerous game does so at a hire level of consciousness, or, awareness to those around them than someone shooting targets because their rifles are usually always hot. QUOTE]

Is that why some many PHs are jumpy about following up wounded game with a "highly aware" client in tow?

quote:

The PH's instruct clients to close the bolt on a live round with the trigger pulled so as to avoid cocking. They assured me this was safe because the firing pin is not on the primer. I assured them that it was indeed on the primer, ...

Trust me - you can fire a gun by closing the bolt with the trigger pulled! Don't ask me how I know this but I do have a strange looking hole in a chair backrest and some inexplicable holes in some towels that were lying on said chair! (And an odd tear in the carpet in front of the TV!)

I also know that a very heavy for caliber bullet at very low velocity will pass through objects, deflect off a wooden floor and strike a foam mattress and stop and remain nose first!

Nothing to do with mistiming the trigger pull either. Simply the bolt moving forward as it cams the cartridge home. Don't try it with a live round. Murphey's law ....

quote:

Originally posted by Chisana:
Is that why some many PHs are jumpy about following up wounded game with a "highly aware" client in tow?

Yup, you're related!

I discussed this with my crack dealer, uh, I mean gunsmith. He agrees that Africa Carry is for the birds. There certainly seems to be a clear concensus on this.

Thanks to all for the help.
Brice

I would get a new PH!

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by Chisana:
Is that why some many PHs are jumpy about following up wounded game with a "highly aware" client in tow?

Yup, you're related!

Is she hot?!

Hi freischuetz,
My PH gets a lot of credit for immediately recognizing the mechanics involved and potential safety problems. He freely admitted he was wrong and began pursuing the discussion of what the safest method might be.

Inceidentally, I've hunted Moz once and was quite pleased with the wildness of the country. Hope to go back.