on a scoped rifle what is a good way or method to get the length of pull.
Is it different for types of shooting. bench or off hand?
Thanks Dave

Boy, you sure like starting arguments ! LOL

Length of pull is something that has been out for debate since we started putting butt stocks on guns. My belief is that the correct length of pull is what ever feels comfortable for you. Put up every gun you can find and see which one suits you best and then measure it from trigger to the end of the center of the butt stock. Aside from that. I tell my customers to hold gun down and throw it up quickly with their eyes closed, settle into the stock and then open their eyes. Do that repeatedly. If the pad is snagging on your arm pit or shirt more often than not, it's to long and is going to cause you grief. The next step is to throw it up again the same way and before you open your eyes have someone measure the distance from your nose to the closest part of your thumb which is usually the second knuckle back. For medium caliber guns in the -06 case and small magnums you need at least 1 inch of clearance. Otherwise when you pull the pin, the gun and your hand will come back under recoil and your hand will crash into your face. Usually your nose. For heavy magnums I tell guys to lean more toward 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inches of clearance. This rule always trumps the snagging on the arm pit rule. You can get used to the gun snagging when it comes up and adjust your mounting style just like a golf swing. But no one ever gets used to getting punched in the face.

LOP by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr

To further compound the problem, the correct length of pull with a summer shirt on is entirely different from what length of pull is comfortable at low temperatures and wearing heavy clothing.

quote:

Originally posted by boliep:
To further compound the problem, the correct length of pull with a summer shirt on is entirely different from what length of pull is comfortable at low temperatures and wearing heavy clothing.

Easy fix, hunt naked! If you get cold, yer not tough enough to be in the bush! LOL

Roy Dunlap stated the LOP needs to be at least 1/2" shorter then the average shooter thinks it should be. I find this to be mostly true.

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Delete, duplicate post

quote:

Originally posted by kendog:
Roy Dunlap stated the LOP needs to be at least 1/2" shorter then the average shooter thinks it should be. I find this to be mostly true.

There is something to that Ken and I see it a lot. When I have a guy come in and demand a 15 or 16 inch LOP I always kind of smile and ask them how a guy of 5 foots 9 inches came up with a measurement like that and 90% of the time they tell me that they measured from the crook of their elbow to the first joint in their pointer finger, just like it said to do in the big-time-gun-writer article. LOL

I only know one 5 foots 10 inches guy who has a 15 inch LOP and that's me. And it's only because I'm a stoop shouldered, long necked herring muncher and I like to get as close as I can to game before I shoot it. Even if I have to climb right over top of the damned rifle to do it!

As a rule, the average guy wont buy a new rifle at the local Gunporium unless he can see a few board-feet of wood between the grip and the butt. It just dont look good in the rack when the stock is the proper length. I think my off hand LOP was 11-1/2 and grew out to almost 13 for prone NRA Highpower with a Win M70 Target. A stock with 11-1/2 LOP looks like it is for a munchkin.

On My scoped rifles most of them are JUST TOO LONG. I have the scopes back as far as possible.
off hand is not as much a problem as shooting from the bench

You want a length where it is long enough to fill the space between you shoulder and hands. If you consciously have to keep pulling it back in, then its too short. This matters for any calibre with a bit of recoil - the gun gets a run up at you.

Actual length also varies in how you use the gun - prone is different to a standing shot.

Eye relief on scope is also critical - I prefer to be as long as possible - no chance then of being scoped if you are in an uncomfortable or odd shooting position.

Personally I prefer a bit too long as opposed to a bit too short.

I read somewhere that the average male is 5'10" and needs a pull of 13 1/2". For every inch more or less than 5'10", add or substract 1/8" in pull. Seems to make some sense at least to get you in the ballpark.
Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Phil McFall:
I read somewhere that the average male is 5'10" and needs a pull of 13 1/2". For every inch more or less than 5'10", add or substract 1/8" in pull. Seems to make some sense at least to get you in the ballpark.
Phil

I learned a long time ago. Never buy a pair of pants based on the size marked on the tag. Try em on, walk around the shop, sit down somewhere and toss a penny on the floor and try to pick it up again before shelling out any more than that penny on them !

Same goes for guns. Play with them in the shop and if at all possible. Find a friend that has that model and if possible the caliber you want and buy him a bottle of whiskey, a bunch of ammo and take him to the range for the day so that you can shoot one.

well the one size wont fit us all.
I took the 1/2" recoil pad off and its better it measured over 14" LOP. now it is just over 13".
I like solid but plates better any way.
Ill give that a try and see if its any better

Back in 1970 or thereabouts I paid a visit to Holland & Holland's shooting school outside of London for a session.

I fired off around 100 rounds of 12 gauge shot shells using a "try gun" with an articulated stock, which had been adjusted to what was assumed would be my dimensions, but then corrected, using both a stationary patterning plate and then firing at clay pigeons thrown from every imaginable angle, including from a high pheasant tower.

I still have the stock measurements which were taken from that try gun and have used them on my custom stocked shotguns and double rifles. Of course, it doesn't hurt that my build is much the same now as it was then.

Target rifles are a whole different subject. Most of mine have adjustable buttplates and cheekpieces, which allow comfortable positions in standing, kneeling, sitting and prone. I would never think of inflicting such measurements on a hunting rifle, since the positions used in target shooting bear little resemblance to those used in the hunting field.

I think arm length, shoulder pocket, face size, etc are way more important than height.

I think most US made rifles are WAY to short. European are sized better.

I like 14.5-15", but I'm 6'3" with 37.5" sleeves.

This is actually a good subject and worth repeating. The standard LOP seems to be around 13 1/2", give or take 1/8". The mass produced manufacturers can't build them all to fit everybody correctly. You can adapt and make use of different sizes but it is not the best method.
Gun writers have been doing a splendid job of marketing the factory LOP.
While target shooting or shooting competitively. You will have all the dimensions adjusted to your comfort and style. Unless there is competitive restriction placed on the type of weapon and customization.
When on the range with no time limit, you have ample time to adjust your body to fit and make do. Sadly that is what most shooters do.
Offhand high power shooting, you stand at a 90 degree angle to your target, wrapped in a sling and tight shooting jacket. It is an accurate position but not the fastest or most practical.
In hunting you shoot offhand facing the target or pretty close to it. You might be free handing it, supported by bi or tripod or tree branch. Your LOP will be different.
The Europeans are ahead of us, especially the Britts. As has been mentioned by our accomplished shooter, an articulated or adjustable stock in all the dimensions is the only way to a perfect fit. You can't wear someone elses suit and expect a perfect suit fit, no matter the material.
Competitive shotgunners have been getting personally fitted and having the shotguns adjusted to THEIR specs and not every body else.
Look up a good shotgun, trap and skeet shooting center and inquire about custom fitting. Few fitters travel the competition circuit and provide that service, IT is well worth it.

In hunting, the biggest flop in connecting on game, is actually the close in, small window of opportunity shot. Your rifle should be limber and snap into position as quickly as possible with a perfect sight picture. There is no time to adjust.
Practice snap shooting at home and keep the stock weld on your cheek and operate the bolt fully and fast. Your arm should manipulate the bolt with speed and comfort. Add cardboard spacers to lengthen The LOP in 1/8" increments and see what you prefer best.

I am 5 10" and always had 13 5/8" and lived with it. A few years ago , I was fitted by James Tucker in Oregon with his try gun. I was shocked to see it at 14 3/8". He said most people are using information from 40-50 years ago and from magazine scribble. Now, when I use the old LOP, it positively feels short and slow.

You will have problems with scopes fitting, due to eye relief. The front tube between the adjustment knobs and the objective lens is being made too short for weight saving and looks. If you have a variable scope and you crank up the power, you will find yourself crawling forward to see the full sight picture.
I have gravitated back to fixed power scopes and especially the old and excellent Leupold 4x28mm long tube. Sometimes you will find you have to use extended or offset rings to make the scope fit you.
I would like to see more rifles built with adjustable LOP's.

Not to muddy the water even more, But proper length of pull is just one of many dimensions to a stock that all work in harmony to fit the shooter and put the weapon on the shoulder in the same natural place each and every time.

Besides length of pull there is also,

Pitch of butt plate/recoil pad
Drop at comb
Drop at heal
Cast On or off
And finally one overlooked but very important dimension is the shape and pull of the wrist. the wrist shape in conjunction with the LOP provide a correct landing and natural hand filling grip where the index finger in placed on the trigger without under or over reaching. Most factory stocks are built to accommodate a broad range of shooters with skinny wrists and short grip lengths. When you can place your index finger on the trigger at the second knuckle the grip is too short.

This is why a bespoke firearm takes a few fittings to get it correct, and why they command the price they do.

as to the comment on scope position. I always set eye relief for a customer in the standing position and at full magnification on a variable power scope. The Eye box opens up at lower power and is more forgiving to position so setting up proper position at full power is key to a natural point of aim. the last thing you want to be doing is turkey necking at full magnification trying to get a clear view through the scope. You are at full magnification for a reason, and thats for precision, either a smaller target or a more distant one but in either case adjusting your position to fit the scope is not going to produce a quality shot. The scope should be at it's ideal point of eye relief with a full diameter of light at full magnification.

Grasp the grip normally and the butt should just touch your bicep. That works in every case, except when it doesn't.
I always make stocks much longer than they need too be. I don't want to cut off any fancy wood. And if I make mistake installing the pad, which I never do, I always have more wood to work with. Customers never complain. They all want long LOPs.

quote:

Originally posted by boliep:
To further compound the problem, the correct length of pull with a summer shirt on is entirely different from what length of pull is comfortable at low temperatures and wearing heavy clothing.

Yup. My synthetic stocked (travel) rifles were built with 3/4" less.

I really didn't get LOP until I bought a rifle that kicked. It was a Ruger in 338 with that 1/2 inch hard rubber pad. I bought a slip on pad to dampen the recoil and Holy Shit did that make a difference. Now dependent on stock design I stay with 14"-14.25" for everything.

Mark

Stock length boils down to two points:

1) The stock needs to be long enough to keep your thumb from hitting you in the nose under recoil but 2) not so long that the stock catches on your shoulder when mounting.

Generally speaking, that is about 1.5" between your thumb and cheekbone when the stock is mounted.

Do you shoot square to the target? Or bladed and across your body? Crane your neck or shoot with your head up? Height, weight, physical build, all of these variables come into consideration, but how you mount the gun is equally as important.

Beat me to it. For a rifle far enough to avoid the nose and close enough so the scope fits.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Stock length boils down to two points:

1) The stock needs to be long enough to keep your thumb from hitting you in the nose under recoil but 2) not so long that the stock catches on your shoulder when mounting.

Generally speaking, that is about 1.5" between your thumb and cheekbone when the stock is mounted.

Do you shoot square to the target? Or bladed and across your body? Crane your neck or shoot with your head up? Height, weight, physical build, all of these variables come into consideration, but how you mount the gun is equally as important.

And we just came full circle right back to the second post ! LMAO ROFF

Grip angle makes a big difference in the length. I have Contender and Encore rifles and they have a grip more upright than typical sporting stocks. A 13-14" pull feels much shorter. My favorite Contender stock is a thumb hole with a 16" length, sounds way too long but I like it.

Looking at old British safari rifles for sale many of them have long pulls and I don't think the original owners were really tall.

M

I'm sorry but mentioning a Contender and Encore is like throwing in a chassis system. There is nothing conventional about the shape and design of it. Sorry it's still a pistol with a rifle stock.

No when I mean grip length and wrist girth I mean on a American Classic rifle stock. the kind you see on commissioned rifles. or even Semi production guns like a Dakota before they were bought out.