I admit to being a cheapskate. Thats because I cannot shoot better than pie plate accuracy anyway.

So, my question is this.

If I want to put a used barrel on a mauser action, and I screw it on and the sights that are already on there don't line up, so I need to "time" it and then deepen the chamber a bit, is there a way I can accurately take off the metal both at the end of barrel and also ahead of the threads without a lathe? Or, in other words, has anybody ever done this with a file?

This may be so far out to lunch that it is ridiculous, but the FAL builders time some of their barrels using a sandpaper disc with a hole big enough for the barrel (rough side to the bbl of course) and tighten it up against the grit until they achieve what they want. Might be a solution if your receiver had enough shoulder on the face. Course they have hand guards going over it so they may cover up any unsightliness.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I admit to being a cheapskate. Thats because I cannot shoot better than pie plate accuracy anyway.

So, my question is this.

If I want to put a used barrel on a mauser action, and I screw it on and the sights that are already on there don't line up, so I need to "time" it and then deepen the chamber a bit, is there a way I can accurately take off the metal both at the end of barrel and also ahead of the threads without a lathe? Or, in other words, has anybody ever done this with a file?

Accurately was the key word in your question WRF & the accurate answer is no. The chances of ending up with something you will be satisfied with are pretty slim.

If your headspace is OK, you can heat the solder and turn the sights to 12:00. There is a setscrew under the front sight and at the front of the rear sight that need to be removed also.
Sometimes you can luck out swapping barrels, but you do need to check the headspace.

quote:

but you do need to check the headspace.

yea, I have to find somebody who will lend me a go and no go guage. is there a preferable brand.

Aaaaaaarrrrgggg, best way is with the magic tool everyone wants, the lathe. Anything else is bubba at his best.

Having three lathes, I would show you how to do it if you were my neighbor.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

but you do need to check the headspace.

yea, I have to find somebody who will lend me a go and no go guage. is there a preferable brand.

8x57 or something else?

Of course it "can" be done; it's done in places like Asscrackistan every day by the locals. Given enough time, enough skill and a few simple tools it can be done.

well, I have the time and the files, its the skill I am worried about. Its a 30-06.

Can, should, and ethics don't mix in this equation.

But, a guy does what he has to do!!!

File: Armstrong Milling Machine

Location?

I wouldn't want to do it, but I do a lot of things others wouldn't. When I was in college, I lost the oil pump and did some damage to the engine of a 68 Canmaro. Had it reringed and new bearing inserts put in at a friend's shop. When putting it back together, we found that one of the rod journals was worn egg shped and torqueing it locked up the crank. I had no money for a crank job, so I made a washer of .003 shim stock, we torqued it down and it ran with good oil pressure. The mechanic was horrified, but I was broke and knew that bearings used to be shimmed in place as a design method. I put 80,000 more miles on that 327 and it was still running strong. Just because something isn't by the book doesn't mean it won't work.

The fact it is a mauser makes it a lot easier. The front shank actually is better off not touching the action, so file it for clearance only. The face of the barrel in a mauser is supposed to take all the torque against the C ring. I would try really squaring up the table on a disc sander and using a guide or v-block squared the other way to position the barrel. Hold it square and rotat it as you gently touch it to the disc. You'll be amazed how fast it cuts, so be careful. A quarter of a turn is roughly 0.02".

Unless the change is small or the chamber already has a lot of headspace, you will need a reamer to lengthen the chamber slightly. If you clamp the action in a vice and go slowly by hand while using an extension, you can open it up until you can just close the bolt on a go gauge.

All that said, you will need a reamer,an extension and t-handle, a barrel vice, an action wrench and at least a go guage. I doubt you can get all these for twice the price that a smith would charge to screw on and headspace a barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Of course it "can" be done; it's done in places like Asscrackistan every day by the locals. Given enough time, enough skill and a few simple tools it can be done.

I have one ot the Asscrackistan guns, brought back by my Nephew when he had the pleasure of serving in that horrid place. I need to take a photo of it, it looks as good or better than the original English made version!!

quote:

Originally posted by WoodHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Of course it "can" be done; it's done in places like Asscrackistan every day by the locals. Given enough time, enough skill and a few simple tools it can be done.

I have one ot the Asscrackistan guns, brought back by my Nephew when he had the pleasure of serving in that horrid place. I need to take a photo of it, it looks as good or better than the original English made version!!

I'd really like to see it.

Flex your muscles as an attorney and subpoena three people to help you. Whittle yourself two centers out of a broom handle and put these on each end of the barrel. Get two of the three guy's to hold them at each end. Have the third person spin the barrel by hand while you hold your file against the shoulder of the barrel. Go slow and good luck. Or, remove the sights from the bottom of the barrel and glue them on the top. Your choice.

That's kind of cruel, isn't it Guy?

A more helpful suggestion would be to use his big toe as one center and his ***k as the other.
He could then spin the bbl with his left hand and hold the file with is right. Being a tight ass, he could eat the shavings and crap himself a no-go gauge free of charge. Brilliant!

Just hold it side ways gang banger style and use it in the inner city.

when I posted this I expected that some of my friends would give me some gas about it. I haven't been disappointed.

Thanks.

Am afraid that you are going to feel a lot of frustration on this one. Be careful and don’t hurt yourself with the end product-----can you sue yourself if it goes badly lol???

One word: WOW!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
One word: WOW!!!!!

Ya got it.

What was that Brownell's quote?

"Fire Hardened corn cob reamer".

Ahh. Been an entertaining thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Am afraid that you are going to feel a lot of frustration on this one. Be careful and don’t hurt yourself with the end product-----can you sue yourself if it goes badly lol???

I am going to send it to you with a few of my reloads for test firing.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Am afraid that you are going to feel a lot of frustration on this one. Be careful and don’t hurt yourself with the end product-----can you sue yourself if it goes badly lol???

I am going to send it to you with a few of my reloads for test firing.

OK--so if something goes bad you will represent me right?????

That would be against the rules of professional conduct because it would be a conflict of interest!!

Some where down the line someone will acquire this item after you have finished it and they will expect it to have been assembled with reasonable care and workmanship. If you do a crappy job of putting it together at least mark that on it. Then find one of those guys with a Lincoln welder on the back of his truck and have him make it a permanent assy. He can also tack on your scope mount bases too.

I don't plan on doing a "crappy job". Thats why I posted this post - to get information from those who know more than I do about it.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I don't plan on doing a "crappy job".

Then you almost certainly need to hire it done, simply because you are probably not sufficiently experienced with a file. Ask one of your many friends (grin) to do it for you, seriously.
Regards, Joe

whether its reciprocal or not, I consider all who post here on AR as my friends, seriously!

Regards, Kevin

I'll answer your question by saying "Yes, it can be done, if done very carefully and very slowly, but you MAY end up having to take it to a gunsmith anyway."

Cutting whichever face needs it (both may need cutting a bit) will not lengthen headspace but will reduce it from whatever it is right now, so it may end up with too little headspace, rather than too much.

And though lots of folks will howl when I say this, it doesn't really matter if the lessened headspace is not enough for a SAAMI "go" gauge unless you are doing it for someone other than yourself. What does matter practically is whether it has enough headspace to accept the ammunition you want to feed it. If it does, then headspace is not a problem so far as whether it will fire is concerned.

However, the headspace may be so large now before any cutting is done that even though reducing it by about .020" to get the sights straight up, it may still be excessive to fire with safety.

You can test that by taking an inactivated cartridge and fitting a square or washer cut out of .002" shim stock to cover the base end of the cartridge, then with the extractor removed, chamber the cartridge and VERY gently let the bolt close on it. (I would remove the firing pin spring, cocking piece, and firing pin, just to make sure no force was being applied other than the bare minimum to turn the bolt very gently by hand.) If you feel any resistance to the bolt closing, stop. If you don't feel any resistance, remove the cartridge and add another .002" shim and try again. Repeat until you feel some.

That will not tell you how much headspace the rifle has compared to the SAAMI specs, but it MAY tell you how much it has compared to your ammo.

If you get a total of .006" added on without feeling any resistance, I would say the headspace is possibly at the dangerously excessive level, and it should be checked and adjusted by a 'smith with the proper tools, skills, and gauges.

Is this the method I would use or recommend?

NOOO!!!!!

I would use a lathe and real gauges. But I know of places and instances where this has been done and worked out just fine...particularly right after WW II when anything shootable was hard to come by for a while.

And someday you may NEED to know this approach can and WILL work if done carefully enough. I hope not, but can't read our futures either.

Y'all be careful now, and don't cheap yerself inta a hard spot, y'hear?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
whether its reciprocal or not, I consider all who post here on AR as my friends, seriously!

Regards, Kevin

Hmmmm, somehow I just can't seem to believe that.

even those like you Mr. Kobe.

You've been given enough of a hard time over this, (not necessarily undeserved) so I won't do more. Real answer is take it to someone and pay them to do it right.

For the education of us, though, I'll describe how a person can do this.

First, you need a good understanding of barrel fitting, and headspacing. Don't start down this road if you don't have that understanding. And not just book knowledge, but hands-on. A good example would be an experienced gunsmith that by circumstances doesn't have a lathe.

There are 3 things that need to align, and align properly to make this work.

First, the internal shoulder that contacts the end of the barrel. The barrel needs to firmly butt up against this, when correctly indexed and torqued.

Second, the front shoulder of the shank must either simultaneously butt squarely up against the receiver, or not touch it at all. (Slight clearance).

Third, the headspace must be within safe working limits.

To do this right, you really need a depth guage to measure action face to innner shoulder dimension. Compare this to the barrel tenon, and if barrel tenon is shorter, you will not be hitting internal shoulder. In that case, you need to take off barrel shoulder until the dimension is at least as long as internal length, so that barrel will screw in and seat fully. If you don't have a depth guage, you can put something to indicate contact on the front of the receiver inner shoulder, screw in the barrel, and see if it touches. A bit of beeswax gives some indication. If it appears to be touching, put indicating fluid or black marker on the barrel, and see if it gets scratched by the contact when it is screwed in. Again, this is a half ass way to do it, not the right way.

If the barrel is contacting the inner shoulder, then you need to take material off the back of the barrel (evenly, of course) till it times. If the barrel shoulder is hitting the front of the action simultaneously, you will have to remove material there. If you have extreme skill with files, you can do it that way. To check the work, periodically mark the barrel end, and screw it in to indicate high spots, and selectively file them. Make sure the barrel shoulder is filed off simultaneously. If it's just a few thousandths (say .003 or less)that need to be taken off the end of the barrel, you can put lapping compound on the end of the barrel and repetitively screw it in and out about 1/32 of a turn to grind away the end of the barrel. This is tedious, but can be done and will get the contact right.

The barrel shoulder can be taken off by lapping with a plate of steel with a hole the barrel shank size. Put lapping compounds on both sides of the plate, put it on the shank, spin in the barrel till it contacts the plate lightly, and turn the plate round and round to grind material off of the action and barrel simultaneously. Periodically remove barrel, clean it up, and check to see how you're doing. Incidentally, this step is not really bubba work, it can significantly help the accuracy of the finished job. If you file off the shoulder, this step will get it square with the action face again. Lapping this way is tedious, and best not done for more than .005". More than that and the surfaces begin to round off and not make good contact.

When you get the barrel so it screws in, indexes, and contacts at least the inner shoulder correctly, this piece is done.

Now, there is really no acceptable alternative to a headspace gauge to check if you are within spec. And, you will need a correctly sized reamer to fix it if it isn't long enough. And, will have to file more material off to rotate the barrel a full turn and resquare everything again on the barrel if it's too long. As described before, you can makeshift the work with a shimmed cartridge, but that is really iffy at best.

Best thing is to take it to someone to do it. Or send it in the mail to guys that do this cheaply if you want to be cheap. PM me and I can give you contact info for a couple of guys that will do it for under $100.

dave

Dave

I appreciate the information.

I am not unschooled in understanding how it works. When I was in my early 20s I worked for a gunsmith for awhile. He installed barrels.
I didn't. But I learned about headspace and threading. I am aware of headspace guages, and how they are used. I have watched people chamber barrels on many occasions.

Thank you.

quote:

When I was in my early 20s I worked for a gunsmith for awhile. He installed barrels.

How long did it take him to file a barrel in?

he had a lathe. I don't.

It is simply not correct to say you have to use a headspace gauge to make a barrel work correctly.

A great many barrels have been fitted without them by various folks over the years, and some of those guns/barrels have set many national records and won national championships. I have three of them which never ever saw a headspace gauge, and which have done so.

Now, I would not sell them to anyone else, but I have loaned one of them to other shooters who won matches with it. I knew the shooters, had a very good idea of how much they knew about loading cartridges to fit a specific chamber, and did so without the least bit of worry.

It is entirely practical to headspace to a cartridge case, either loaded or unloaded, so long as you know how to use that chamber (how to load for it) after you have it.

If you are looking for a barrel which will use ANY factory ammo you run across for that named cartridge, then yes, a gauge is the easy way to go. But if you are willing to load the ammo to fit the chamber, then it is very practical to use the ammo itself as a gauge.

I know lots of folks will kick and scream at the very thought, and possibly call me all kinds of names for saying it, as well as question my intelligence and parentage.

But facts are facts. Though gauges are nice, and should be used whenever a gun is probably going to pass into someone else's hands, they are NOT required to make good functioning guns which will be entirely serviceable for the maker/owner, as long as he knows how to make more ammo to those same specs (and sometimes they will be even more accurate).

Multiple Funny Posts.

Thanks, Kevin for the thread...
there's been some great info shared!

Best wishes with your project.

-just another AR friend-

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
It is simply not correct to say you have to use a headspace gauge to make a barrel work correctly.

I absolutely agree with that statement. And, in the context of benchrest rifles or specialized calibers, it can, and is, an advantage. I have several rifles that are specifically chambered to match the ammo. Many of them I have purchased a lifetime supply of brass from one lot, formed my brass in the dies I have chosen to use, and then chambered the rifle to fit. I have 3 reamers that I had custom ground to fit specific ammo.

However, the thing to remember and emphasize, as you stated in your posts is that THAT RIFLE SHOULD NEVER LEAVE YOUR HANDS AND FALL INTO THE HANDS OF SOMEONE WHO MIGHT USE FACTORY AMMO IN IT.

For 99.9% of the shooters in this world, it is an absolute necessity that a rifle be chambered to a standardardized cartridge and headspaced within established standards. The most reliable way to check this is with a set of gauges.

dave

quote:

THAT RIFLE SHOULD NEVER LEAVE YOUR HANDS AND FALL INTO THE HANDS OF SOMEONE WHO MIGHT USE FACTORY AMMO IN IT.

What have you provided for in your will to take care of that situation?

22WRF, I'm one of the ignorant unwashed who doesn't do legal stuff. I know, I should.

Specifically, my guns: Three are rimmed cartridges, tight chambered. No safety problem there, the case will chamber, or it won't. They're for obsolete calibers anyway, you have to make the brass from other stuff.

Several are wildcats, and so marked. In addition to caliber stamp, I typically stamp barrel info and chamber info under the barrel, so there is some trail. Again, no safety problem, factory ammo isn't an issue, and the info is there for someone to recreate the ammo in the future. A typical stamp is "14 tw Douglas bbl 2.333 o.a.l."

What I don't recommend doing is taking a standard cartridge barrel, fitting it to a receiver in a non-standard way, and then not marking or indicating it on the rifle. If you do a homemade headspace job, just stamp NON-STANDARD under the caliber marking on the barrel. That way, there's a warning there. You could go so far as to stamp or use an electric engraving pencil to put more info under the forend such as "chambered for longer than standard headspace, cases must be fireformed to fit".

dave

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

THAT RIFLE SHOULD NEVER LEAVE YOUR HANDS AND FALL INTO THE HANDS OF SOMEONE WHO MIGHT USE FACTORY AMMO IN IT.

What have you provided for in your will to take care of that situation?