My Classic Safari Express Model 70 (375 H&H caliber) is crushing case mouths almost half shut when I eject the cases at normal (fairly brisk) speed. The cases leave brass marks on the outside of the receiver, and they are mostly smacking the rear edge of the receiver, just in front of the where the bolt handle is when the action is closed. I have verified this is actually where the cases are hitting by putting layout dye here and seeing marks in the layout dye and blue dye on the ejected cases.

I asked Winchester customer service, and they said, yes, that this is how they are designed. I asked my gunsmith, and he asked why I don't pull the bolt back more slowly so the cases don't get crushed.

I practice shooting the way I shoot in the field (cycling the action quickly after a shot), but I want to get more than two or three shots out of a case before the mouth splits from work hardening.

What would you do to the rifle so that the cases can be ejected briskly without getting damaged?

Thanks,

H. C.

Bitch, bitch, bitch! Honestly, Henry, just practice the way you want and don't worry about the cases!

You know, when hunting mbogo in the bush, there's never time to pick up your empies anyway!

George

HenryC470---

Isn't that the CRF Winchester?? If so, all you have to do is alter the angle on the ejector.

I suspect they're crushing on something other than the rifle ...... unless that rifle has a 30-06 ejector in it. The case mouth shouldn't touch anything on the rifle at any time.

HenryC470---

Isn't that the CRF Winchester?? If so, all you have to do is alter the angle on the ejector.

I suspect they're crushing on something other than the rifle ...... unless that rifle has a 30-06 ejector in it. The case mouth shouldn't touch anything on the rifle at any time and the neck just the chamber.

The new 375s do this mostly because the ejector is too long I think although I don't dispute Jack's thinking re. the angle of the ejector. It may also have to do with the way the receiver is cut away at the rear. Anyway, for whatever reason, the case does flip right around and hit the receiver if operated quickly. I don't know if theother long cartridges (like the 300Wby) do this or not because I havn't checked one. Make small changes and test often. Regards, Bill.

A simple half assed solution might be to stick a little piece of adhesive foam where they are hitting and see if that prevents them from getting deformed. I'd be tempted to try some peel-and-stick stuff which you could remove after shooting, and when hunting either put it on or just leave it off.

HenryC470---

Without seeing and trying the gun I can't say *how* to change the ejector.

I can picture how it could come out of the action and flip 180 degrees and ding the neck......it seems like it wouldn't take much change to stop that....it doesn't on a 45 auto.

The older M-70 H&H actions had a severe bevel on the inner-right bridge surface. That transferred the pivot point of the ejecting brass outward. I don't have a new one here to compare it to, though.

Henry,

I'll check my M-70 .375 tonight. I don't remember ever having a problem with the case mouths, and I practice the same way you do.

Whose brass are you using?

George
P.S. There is nothing wrong with hating baboons or cats! It's what you do about it that matters

A friend has one of these and it does the same thing -- I don't know if he's gotten it worked on or not by now.

I've got M70 Classic Safari Express in 416 Rem. Basically the same rifle and it does the same thing. When the bolt is cycled quickly, the case mouths hit the rear bridge just below the point where it flattens out for the scope base. I can see the where some brass scuffs off onto receiver.

I also have the Safri Express Classic in 416 and do not have that problem. My Whitworth mauser in 375 h&h however has the identical problem. Sometimes closing the case mouth half shut. It doesn't bother me much though because it feeds reliably and ejects the shells well out of the way.

I gathered that you did not mind the brass damage while hunting, just while practicing. I find that I can control the speed/force of the ejection by slowing down my operation of the bolt. If shooting from a bench, I'll even stop it with my left hand so that it is not ejected. Ku-dude

This doesn't help the .375 question but I was brought up to believe the most important thing in any shot was NOT did I hit him....but WHERE is my case? (True story) Thus it followed that very few of my cases in life ever touch the ground. I just eject into my left hand automatically Don't even think about it.

Obviously I'm not a Cape Buffalo hunter. Otherwise I might take reloading a bit more seriously.

I'd like to tell everyone that one shot is all I EVER need ...but that would be a crock I'd never live down.

Henry,

I tested the ejection on my 1997-vintage M-70 .375. I could not get it to hit the receiver no matter how hard I worked the bolt. It must just be some slight difference in geometry.

George

Well, the rifle has been to my gunsmith to take out the factory hot glue bedding job and put in glass and pillars. (Do M70's ever melt in the hot African sun?)

I also had him shorten the ejector. He ground off material until the ejector is nearly flush with the bolt face, and the cases still strike the back outer edge of the rear receiver bridge. The ejector is now too short, and the bolt must be slammed to the rear to get a case to eject. I ordered another ejector from Winchester (they sent me an extractor instead ), and I will play with grinding the angle when I get the new ejector. I've done some geometric calculations, and I think I know what angle to try.

Curiously, the new extractor Winchester sent me, with the ground-down ejector, makes the brass hit a different spot (middle of the outer face of rear receiver bridge). I'll try combination of the factory-length ejector and new extractor before I do any grinding. Are these ejectors stainless? The one I just got is "in the white", but the one that came on my rifle is Teflon-coated rather than blued.

JBelk:

I think I understand what you mean about a 30-06 length ejector. With the shorter case, the bolt doesn't come so far back, so the ejector needs to be a litle longer to hit the case head, right?

How far should a (CRF) M70 ejector protrude from the bolt face?

Thanks,

H. C.

Henry, After reading your post I thought hmmmmmm. So I got out my Reminton 700 in .270 and tried slamming the bolt back to eject a fired case and it does the same thing. It does it about half the time and it also hits the rear of the receiver and dents the case mouth.

Just thought you might like to know it's not just Winchesters that do that.

Henry,
Sounds like a lot of trouble. I too would just get a small black piece of the fuzzy hook and loop fastener fabric and glue it to the outside of the receiver. Would make it quiet too. You can then tell people your rifle so forcefully ejects it smashes the cases, good for cool factor.

It's not just the ejector that must be changed but also the bolt stop, which has a shorter arm in long magnum rifles. The shorter arm engages the gas block at the rear of bolt travel.

If you change the ejector length without changing the the bolt stop - no ejection.

Since the extractor acts like a fulcrum on one side of the case and the ejector on the other, there must be a relationship between the two and the arc the case follows when leaving the port. It is certainly hard to visualize imparting enough spin to the case such that it's mouth dings the rear bridge upon leaving the port.

Henry,

I have tested my M70 416 Safari Express and do not have the problem. In my rifle a hard rack of the bolt kicks the case out about 90 degrees to the ejection port.

Let me know if I can take any measurements for you.

B

I'm with Rod.......I can't visualize a case turning 180 degrees before it gets more than two and a half inches from the bridge.

I'm guessing the ejector is WAY too long. It should stick out a M-70 bolt face about .100. A M-98 is even with the guide lug at the full back position.

Turkeyshooter--

A M-700 ejects the same no matter how fast the bolt moves. It's a plunger.

HenryC470--

The ejector is actually at 7:00, but the process you describe is correct.

The best fix for an over aggresive ejection, which is the only thing I can think of, would be to slow down the bolt. The shooter here says he doesn't want to do that. (I haven't had a case hit the ground in 20 years.)

....... So we have to slow the *action* down but keep the bolt speed and energy the same.

The first step would be to limit the amount of time the ejector had to act on the case. Cut it shorter. I've got three pre-64s here. They are all .100 + or - .010 from the bolt face.

The second thing to do would be to reduce the amount of leverage. That's easy, as you said. Just cut an angle on the face of the ejector to move the contact with the case head as far OUT towards the rim as possible.

While you're rooting around in there, take out the bolt stop. If the end is flared you're too rough on the bolt. Slow it down and the problem will be solved.

Yeah, I was using "about 6:00", because I don't have the rifle in my hands, and once I started trying to figure out where the ejector would be on a right handed rifle (5:00 or 7:00?), I got confused.

I'm going to go ahead and measure my own ejector protrusion, but I'm pretty sure it's ground down too short now, because cases don't eject at all if the bolt is worked slowly. There is a range of speeds in which ejection takes place without damaging cases, but it's about the same as when the ejector was ~0.080" longer than it is now.

I'll keep an eye on the bolt stop. I've owned the rifle since about March, but it's been in the shop or in transit almost all of that time. I haven't had lots of time to bash the bolt stop, but Colonel Cooper has advised me to always work the bolt very vigorously and forcefully.

An outdoor-writer friend of mine says I should ask Winchester for some substantial compensation for my all troubles. Does anyone here know about what the distributor price is for a Classic Safari Express M-70? Is Winchester just going to laugh at me for asking? I wouldn't mind building a 458 Lott out of one of these (in spite of recent and ongoing experience). Winchester only sells the LH Safaris in 375 H&H.

H. C.

Henry,

Oh well...(scuff my feet on the floor) it works on my FN-FAL...

HenryC470--

"Colonel Cooper says" ......What's up with that?

A fixed ejector gun ONLY ejects the shell if the bolt comes back against the ejector....Period. You work the bolt like YOU want to. That's why they're made that way. You don't *have* to do anything.

As I said, I haven't had a case hit the ground on purpose in 30 years, but the rifles I shoot are capable of ejection if I want them to. (I remove the plunger ejectors from all my push feed rifles and stop the bolt before ejection on the CFRs)

Winchester owes you nothing. The ejector works just fine. If you want to alter the way it works, that's up to you, not Winchester.

Henry,

The ejector in my M70 416 Safari Express protrudes .100 from the bolt face with the bolt all the way to the rear.

B

[ 12-05-2002, 03:16: Message edited by: Buliwyf ]

I been waiting for this to come up! You know the Peanuts commic strip? Charles is going to kick the football and Lucy jerks it away just as he is into the kick. Now change the drill. Lucy doesn"t press the pointy end tight to the ground. Ball doesn't get much velocity OR direction.
The ctg must be gripped under some tension to get the brass kicked out properly. Winchester uses a larger diameter extraction cannelure on ther Magnum cases. Remingtons are smaller in diameter. Cases I just looked at, probably 15 years old the difference is about .006" When you set up a 70 Win extractor to properly hang on to the case so that the ejector can do its thing -PROPERLY- there will be a difference of about .004 to.006" in a micrometer measurement from the L.H. lug to the same point on the extractor(opposite) -being greater with the case on bolt face under the extractor hook versus the measurement taken with empty bolt face. When you try this you will readily see the difference between the Rem and Win cases and the Norma's will be different again but closer to Rem. This makes it interesting for we custom gun smashers because if you must outfit the safari special to handle mixed brass you will also have feed problems to solve. An Extractor with enough spring tension to handle the Rem case( only just) may make it difficult to close over a ctg dropped (in a Hurry) into the chamber if at all and in feeding up out of that damned bent tin box the extractor may not allow the ctg to jump up into bolt face any where near the first 3d of forward bolt travel relying in stead on the receiver at top of bullet ramp to complete the job. This is a scary thing for some rifle operators because they start picturing a bunch of cow elephants standing ther watching you, spotting the hitch in feeding, bellowing (Translation) Yo! Girls we got us a pilgrim! followed by you looking like one of those car bodies at the crusher site your local land fill. Having to juggle all of those things into the mix is what makes the custom safari type rifles so damned expensive. Theory be damned it still ends up cut and try. After the smith has cranked out varied and diverse rifles he tends to appreciate those two prongs on the L.H> bolt lug side of the 98 Mauser. They were put there to aid in ejection back when it was more difficult to control dimensions in the old days of ctg. making.
What to do? quit screwing with the ejector ,get the extractor tensioned to properly hang on to the cases of your choice Remington. Stick with them and... In Nomine Patris et filiis et Spiritui Sanctis, Go in peace my son!
In all seriousness........Tom Burgess

Well, I measured it, and my ground-down ejector only protrudes 0.048" from the bolt face. I am pretty sure this is too short. The case is still held in place by the extractor if the bolt is pulled all the way to the rear slowly.

The good news is that with a little filing and sanding (on this too-short ejector), I've finally got the rifle ejecting cases without any dents in them

I beveled the top edge and corners of the ejector with a file, and then I shoe-shined the bevel to a radius with 400 grit sand paper.

I guess the real test will be whether this treatment works on the new factory ejector Winchester is supposed to be sending me.

I am anything but discouraged at this moment.

H. C.

Tom Burgess:

Welcome neighbor. It is great to see you here.