Spending less than $200.00 on a rebarrel job, I admittedly "hope" for good accuracy, which to me is the same crapshoot as buying a factory rifle for upward of $500.00. Ive not been dissapointed yet, but Im a hunter first and a shooter second, so I dont "need" 1/2" moa.



If I were to spend that $500.00 for a rebarrel only then I would "hope" that I have the right to "demand" some damn good accuracy. Some gunbuilders however may not see it that way. Like Idared says, everyones got their own ideas.



I do think Ive got a great 'smith like fiftydriver. Hes not in it to get rich, he does it because he loves it and gives all his work the same dedication and attention to detail. I consider myself lucky in that aspect and it is clearly a factor in accuracy.

From some of the discussion in the shaw thread, I thought another thread might be in order.

What really is a good custom barrel, and what should it do? I think folks have different expectations.

Perhaps a good example of an economy barrel is the 35 caliber one I have on a VZ-24 mauser action. It was originally chambered as a 35 whelen AI, then re-chambered as a 350 Ribgy, which also included truing the action and re-crowing. As a 35 whelen AI, I did find a load of RL-15 that would group 250 gr hornady sp or 250 gr Swift A-frames into 1 1/2" for a 100 yd 3 shot group. That sounds great on it's own, I spent at least $100 on components to get to that load, and when dowloaded so much as a 1/2 gr, the groups would open up to 3", some groups were even 5", and that at 100 yds for only 3 shots. I triend 225 gr sierra, 225 gr balistic tips, 250 gr speer, 250 gr hornady and 250 gr a-frames. Powders were RL 15, Varget and VV N-550.

After the re-chamber, re-crown and action truing, I found a load of Varget that will group 3 250 gr hornady rn into 5/8-3/4" at 100 yds. Best loads with the 250 sp are around 1 1/2", but now bad loads only open up to 2-3". I even found a load that put 5 280 gr cast bullets into 1" at 100 yds, but that load hangfired in low temps, and I've yet to find a reliably igniting one that will go under 2-3".

The barrel is rough on the inside, and I have yet to find out how many itterations of JB compound and Barnes CR-10 are required to get a patch that isn't blue. After about an hour of scrubbing I decide the barrel is clean enough. On the up side, the barrel shoots to the same POI whether clean or dirty. The rifle has been stocked in both a synthetic and wood stock, free floated barrel and pressure points tried.

Now, I would expect that had I invested another $100 or so in that barrel, I would be able to get any bullet I wanted to shoot to group 3 into a 1" group, and that really tweaking loads should produce at least one 1/2 inch load. I'd also expect the better barrel to clean up quicker. I would also not have had to spend as much time and money on componets finding a suitable hunting load.

My thinking is a custom rifle should shoot better than a factory rifle. If a gun has a poor performing barrel, I should be able to sell it and get another factory gun for less than it would cost to get an economy barrel installed.

As an example, I picked up a used Ruger M77 mkII ultralight .308 in new condition for $300. The bushnell scope that was on it made a weird clinking sound, and the gun wouldn't group. I free floated the barrel, polished the trigger, and replaced the scope. I can think of few loads that have printed a 3 shot group of 2" at 100 yds, milsurp prints about 1 1/2". Remington 180 gr rn factory loads print 5/8". Handloads with 150 gr balistic tips print right around 1/2". I've tried 150, 165, 180 and 220 gr component bullets, and by picking a known good powder for any componet bullet, I can get a combo that will print 1" or under in about 15 rounds down range.

I would expect a good custom barrel fit by a good gunsmith to be capable of the same loader friendliness as the Ruger, and yield slightly better accuracy. I would expect the smith to be able to do that with any rifle he assembles.

I would not expect every economy barrel to be as good as that Ruger. I'd expect it to be somewhere between the Ruger and the 35 barrel. To me, and extra $100 or so to gurantee that I'd get an easy to load for rifle is a very wise investment.

A 1.250 round of CM cost about $50 in a 30" length.

Whether the consumer pays $105 or $205 that round has to be drilled, rifled and contoured.

Can the barrel maker afford top notch labor? Can he afford the best tooling and repair/replace cutters? Can he afford the reject rate that comes from maintaining high standards?
Will he pay a premium to buy his rounds from best steelmaker available?

Paul H



I prefer cut rifled barrels and in USA there are a few makers to choose from. I only had one Kreiger and it was fantastic



http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/



I have heard many good things about Badger barrels. I will get one for my next project http://www.badgerbarrelsinc.com/



Cheers

/ JOHAN

Paul, I think it's a good idea to pay attention to the brands target shooters are winning trophies with, and the brands that top custom riflemakers are having the best results with. That's a good place to start.

When I had Glen Pearce built my old .300 Win. Mag. for me some eleven years ago, I went with Hart, simply because many of the competitive shooters at our rifle club had used them with tremendous success, and that many national benchrest awards had also been won with Hart barrels. And sure enough, that barrel was a winner for me from day-one, and not only produced tiny groups, but was easy to clean. Glen was a national award-winner in numerous high-power events, including 1,000 championships, and he had absolutely no qualms about my decision to go with Hart, although he was also very big on Shilen, and would install those, as a rule, on his own rifles.

Later, when I started having David Miller and then D'Arcy Echols build rifles, both shops were big on Kreiger barrels, as is Gene Simillion and Mark Penrod. Since all of these guys build rifles to very high standards, I didn't think that it was too dumb of an idea to listen to the Kreiger preference, and go with that brand. As of now, I have eight rifles with Kreiger barrels in the safe, and every one of them is a tack-driver, and extremely forgiving and non-load-specific. Based on this rather limited experience, I can see why those riflesmith love Kreiger.

To me, accuracy in and of itself really isn't enough as a measure of barrel quality. The best barrels I've owned are not only extremely accurate, and in 1/2 mintue-of-angle accurate, but they've been extremely forgiving, and non-load-specific. They are nicely contoured on the outside, without ski mogul-type ripples and imprefections. They are sharp and crisp inside and out. They've cleaned up easily and well. They're not just accurate for a season, but year-in and year-out.

The cost difference between a really great barrel and a low-end or mediocre barrel really isn't all that great. It's really more of an exercise in stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime, especially in view of how many years a really great barrel can last. I don't believe in false economy. Labor's the biggest part of the cost, and the labor's the same if you've ordered a tomato-stake barrel, or a tournament-grade barrel. I see no virtue -- no intelligent ecomony -- in ordering a $100 barrel if accuracy isn't going to be first-rate, there are ripples in the exterior finish, if it's extremely load-sensitive, and if the sumbitch fouls up wall-to-wall after the first couple of shots. That is NOT money well-spent, nor is it money well-saved...........

AD

I've owned dozens of aftermarket barrels from folks such as Shaw, Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Pac-nor, Lilja and a few others. I have heard many good things about Krieger, Channlynn, and Obermeyer.

IMO, the best buy out there is the standard match grade SS Pac-nor. They just shoot as well as the (more expensive) Liljas and Harts I've used and they generally out shoot my Douglas and CM Shilens.

Personally, I won't keep a sporter weight rifle unless it will shoot 0.5MOA or so. Not that I need it for hunting, but I insist upon it because it is obtainable and because I enjoy riflry as much as hunting.

I have found CM Shaw, Douglas, and Shilen barrels to be quite fussy on occasion. The Harts, Liljas, and Pac-nors are decidedly less fussy, at least in my experience.

Something not mentioned but should be appreciated about custom barrels.

1. The equipment to produce them is not cheap, not even close to cheap

2. the precision with which the good ones are made is much more than most "gun lovers" would ever think of.

I know that until a couple of days ago I just thought of it as a tube that had been lathe turned, drilled and a button pullled through, no big deal. I know more now and know it is hard work making one. I have some links at home that have more information on the equipment and all if you guys would like me to post them.

Red

Paul,

Back in another century I shot with a Navy team. Those shooters didn't have time to fool with a barrel that would not shoot. If the barrel didn't shoot a known good load, it came off the rifle and was turned into tent pegs.

Also those guys used to call the Krieger barrel a "High Master Barrel" because you had to shoot HM scores to match the quality of the barrel

jim dodd

It's in the eye of the beholder.

I have dabbeled in barrel making and learned enough to agree that it is not my call in life. Plus I have made enough mistakes in working with fitting barrels to sort out what I can and cannot do. In another 50 or so years I may have it figgured out to perfection.

So I use what I consider good barrels, with the decision tempered by the desires of the customer.

Seen' em all, some good, some excellent, some a piece of round stock for making muzzle brakes.

I like LW for the big bores. Pac Nor, Lilja for tiny groups. Sometimes a Hart. There are a few I will not let in the shop, best to leave the names shrouded on the "Dark Side".

Bought a bunch of blanks a long time ago, from a shop that went under: Blanks were real old (made in the late 40's and 50's), some Pfeiffer, some Apex when Apex was in CA, some Buhlmiller, bunch of Douglass XX's made in the 60's. Had a lot of fun finding out what would shoot!!!! Plus they were good 'fodder for learning chambering & threading. I had my hands on the Apex barrel making machinery when it was for sale, it was kinda fun seeing the 'stuff that made the barrels I had carved on.

What you are looking for is ... LOTHAR WALTHER.

Ive had both extremes. Ive had a custom barrel from a BR barrel maker which is absolute crap. The first barrel I got from him (Also my first custom barrel)was great ,shot super well with all loads ,hardly fouled,felt very smooth ,generaly what I thought custom barrels should be. When that barrel was shot out after many rounds I bought another one, same dimensions,twist ,everything , and it was shocking ,felt rough,fouled badly,bullets came apart when pushed fast and when I asked if I could send it back to be relapped ,he said all barrels are lapped the same and that my wildcat was the problem. I suspest that both were lapped the same but that the 2nd barrel was very porous.
Then there is my 308 Rem 700 factory barrel. It has shot 5-6000 rounds ,is pitted from rust and the bullets cant be seated out far enough to touch the rifling. Yet it shoots great with all loads ,all bullets, it foules badly but doesnt seem to affect accuracy much. I have a custom barrel here waiting to be fitted but I,m scared to change it back to an inferior custom barrel. Strange things these barrels.

Paul,

Well, I guess it depend on the person having the rifle built.

In my shop, no matter weither its an $80 dollar A&B barrel or my prefered $300 Lilja blanks, they all get machined the same no matter what, no matter the use of the rifle. My 1000 yard BR rifles are barreled the same as my big game rifles, as good as I possibly can.

With that said, I have built some rifles using "cheap" barrels that would scare the hell out of you at the 500 yard target. They are flat out impressive.

Still I have chambered rifles using these same barrels that while they shot well under 1/2 moa, they fouled in as little as 7-8 shots. To the point of needing a serious barrel cleaning to even keep the rounds on target at 100 yards. Wouldn't have believed it if I did not see it and spend several hours cleaning myself. The first two three shot groups out of that rifle, a 257 STW loaded with the 100 gr Ballistic Tip to 3950 fps would average under 1/2 moa.

That said, youtake a gamble with a lower priced barrel in the area of barrel stresses and bore finish. Also with steel quality. Just blued up a few barrels and one was a cheap barrel that apparently had a high nickle content and did not blue real deep, the others look great that were in the same bath.

So for my money and my customers, this is a discription of a true custom quality barrel.

1. Must be accurate above all else, that being that with a quality fitting it simply must meet the requirements I set for it when I range test the rifle prior to shipping to the customer. And I mean accurate with the majority of the loads tested, not one out of ten. All that would say is that the rifle fitting is poor at best.

2. Must have a quality bore finish. After proper brake-in, the barrel better be able to shoot at least 25 rounds with very little copper fouling.

3. Barrel steel must be of a quality alloy that is what it is said to be so there are no surprises such as faults in the steel or when bluing barrels.

If a customer comes to me whating to build a rifle, the first thing I ask is what are your accuracy goals and what is your rifle cleaning proceedures.

I will always recommend Lilja barrels first and settle for a lower quality barrel only if the customer, who is my boss, demands it.

Personally, I know for a fact that when a customer take one of my rifles out shooting or on a hunt that has been fitted with a Lilja barrel, the next time I see them, they will have a smile on their face.

When using lower quality barrels, I generally see then with problems that I need to fix, generally very fouled barrels.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

Fiftydriver and Idared are "right on": More than half the job is the qualilty of the barrel threading, chambering, action work, etc.

I have an old MarkX 30-06, the barreled action I obtained a long time ago for about nothing. Put it in a B&C stock (UGH!!!) with a little steel bed. This thing shoots around 3/8" and under groups all day long and has its share of critters. I bet the barrel cost under $20 to make, so go figure out this one and then buy a mega lotto ticket!

I like Kreigers also, but the last ones I ordered took over 7 months delivery, so I broke my Krieger habit.

John, can you tell me how you liked the quality of the Apex barrels? I know I have them on at least two guns, both of which I have only shot 5 times (One is waiting for glass for the last 3 years and the other is at the gunsmiths).

welcome back, long time now see by the way.

Red

Way back in time they were good barrels.

I installed a new generation Apex about 4 years ago. (Apex has been through a few owners since Sam May had it a long time ago and is now in Flagstaff).

This was a 338 gain twist. Had a lot of trouble with fouling.

Don't know if the current owner (Steve Webb) is making sporter barrels any more, he was into gov't contracts for 30 mm barrels. (Yep, 30 mm)

I agree that I would expect it to shoot well, but part of that is also due to the action work that is done when installing it. I only regulary shoot one gun with a custom barrel, a Douglas on my 35 whelen AI. Now, I am not a good enough shot to say it groups this or that. but it shoots well. I only have a couple other rifles with custom barrels, one is an apex, and I have only shot it 5 times so can't say, the other I think might be apex too, and so far it hasn't shot well, but I haven't narrowed it down yet, it could be scope, stock, ya know the drill.

I have a springfield that will turn in 1" and under groups (it shoots so well even I can do it) with different loads, different bullet weights. just a dream shooter.

When I think of a custom barrel I think of the installation as part of it, so I do expect it to shoot well. I expect it to be smooth internally, and properly done externally. I expect everything to be straight, the chamber to be to spec. But I think what I want from a custom barrel maybe more than other things (because we all know factory barrels can be accurate too) is consistency over the life of the barrel. I have not shot enough to test this, but I want to after thousands of rounds be getting (maybe setting back for throat erosion) performance very close to when it was new. part of this is of course barrel life, because they all reach a point where they can't perform. That is another factor of a custom barrel though, I expect better steel and better manufacturing methods.

Red

Paul



I also think this is a fair question and I really like Fiftydriver's answer to it.



Well, I guess it depend on the person having the rifle built.



Everyone has somewhat different idea of what quality really is, and often no one is completely right or completely wrong. My idea of quality does not include many present factory rifles and I know many would argue that point till the sun goes down in Alaska on June 21. So, like others have said I think it is up to each individual to set his own standards as to what quality is and procede from there.



My own thought on the matter is I worry more about the quality of the installation than the quality of the barrel. I also have been fortunate enough to have had smiths the last fifteen years or so who had enough pride in their work that each barrel got the very best installation they were capable of. Rarely was I not totally satisfied with the finished product and seldom did I end up with a rifle that wouldn't shoot better than a lot of shooters, including myself on some days. Some were downright scary in what they would accomplish. I have had good luck with Douglas, Shaw, most Shilens, and even one P.O.Ackley barrel. I have also had super experiences with Hart and Lilja although only one barrel from each. I have been in Dan Lilja's shop and it isn't hard to figure out why his barrels are popular. If I was to build a rifle that had to have the utmost in accuracy I believe it would be one of those two. If I simply wanted a hunting rifle, which is what I consider most of my rifles, I would use a Douglas, Shaw, or Shilen. I will also add part of my reasoning for choosing a Shaw is that they have a few twists I like better than Douglas or Shilen. I also would expect them to shoot in the one moa area as it has been proven to me that the smiths I have used can get this sort of accuracy out of their work. It really doesn't have to shoot with a wide variety of bullets that well as I usually only use one bullet with each rifle anyway. Most of the time I use heavier bullets and these have proven to me to be less problematic than lighter bullets in a given caliber most of the time.



I have no experience with Krieger, Obermeyer, or some of the other target and benchrest shooting barrels so really can't rightfully give any opinions on them. From what others have said they must be every bit as good as the best barrels out there most of the time.

The only after market barrels that I have experience with on my (non AR-15) rifles are Krieger, Lilja, and Pac-Nor. My range and hunting time is precious to me, and I prefer shooting to working up loads. I also find cleaning to be drudgery, so I cherish a smooth bore. It is nice to look through a borescope and say "Wow, how do they get it so smooth?", rather than "Yikes!" I may drive an old beat up truck, but my rifles have bright, shiny and straight bores.
JCN

If you are going to put the money into the labor required to true up the action, and have a quality threading/chambering/crowning job done, by all means put some money into a premium barrel.

One rule: You generally get what you pay for.

Another rule: Buy the best,and cry once!!

Violate both rules and you start over.

Paul, you are describing my .338-06 to a T. It wears a McGowen & it fouls pretty easily & is very picky about it's best loads, but it does shoot to POA w/ the always precious 1st shot.
I have (4) PacNor bbls. now & am really happy w/ the quality especially for the price. Some day I'll rebarrel that .338-06 w/ a 23" PacNor & see if that settles things down. It's had a bunch of rounds thru it & must be getting tired.

Hello Folks,
I'm an FNG here and this is my first post. I read with enthusiasm, all the opinions on what a quality barrel should do,be, etc. I really enjoy the varied responses. My experiences with quality barrels, in building one complete rifle (Pac Nor barrel)and one where I sent the action to Hart to be rebarreled, have proved to be worth every cent that I spent on the barrels and associated work to the actions. Both rifles are M700 Remingtons. The first is a .22-250, 1-12 twist Hart super-match stainless varmint weight in an H-S Precision PSS stock. No extra bedding to the stock, just barrel clearance. Shooting on the benchrest league at my local club (200 yds, I B S hunter rifle target)my best so far has been 198/200- 5X shooting a Berger 64 grain moly bullet. The smallest 5 shot group of that 198 score was .380" . That is less than a quarter minute acurracy. The barrel cleans with one wet patch and three dry patches through it to whistle cleanliness.
The second rifle started out as an early (green parkerized)
Rem. PSS in .308 Win. which shot quite well for the level of use that it had had, when I bought it from the local police force. However, the previous year I had taken the Long Range Shooting course at Camp Perry in Ohio, put on by the NRA and that had caused me to want a rifle which had no peers.The only problem was, I didn't have the kind of money required to buy one, so I decided that I would build my own.
So, I stripped the .308 action and barrel out of the PSS stock and sent it off to Pac Nor in Oregon. At the time, not knowing the least bit about rifle barrels, although I had read somewhere that Pac Nor made decent benchrest barrels. The last rifle I had owned before acquiring these two, was a M700 I bought in 1963 when they first came to market (it shot well, too and I traded it off for a go-kart :-( ). ANYWAY, then I bought an Elk Ridge laminated wood stock in the Tactical model with a 3" delta shaped forearm, which I finished while the action was getting rebarreled with a heavy weight 27" 1-12 twist super match grade stainless barrel, (14 weeks, I think). I wanted the 1-12 twist to shoot 168 Sierra MK bullets. I finally got the action/barrel back and went to work on the stock, bedding and clearancing the barrel area, etc. I bedded the action in total from the relief area for the trigger to the top of the stock and from about a 1/2" behind the tang to about 2" in front of the recoil lug. After all was complete, I brought in the barrel just as described by Pac NOr on their Website. After 50 rounds or so of break-in, I settled in to shoot some groups.
It just so happens that a friend of mine had come along to see how this super rifle (it looked it) was going to shoot.
The glass that I had on it at the time was the scope that had come from the police force, which was a Redfield LE-12.
This scope had the reticle which has the two circles (one for 100 yds and one for 200 yds, which represent a human's head size) Sort of macabre, eh? Well anyway, I proceeded to hammer away at the target out at 200yds and wasn't doing much impressive. So I asked my friend if he would like to try it out for size, etc. He promptly shot a 5 shot group which measured .287", with calipers,(200 yards!!!!!) I was ecstatic as we left, he for work and I for the nearest shooting instructor! That is how you measure quality, if it shoots straight and you feel good about your target!
I have since improve my shooting proficiency with this rifle, too, 262" small group out of a score of 200- 6x
Sorry for the long wind. I have probably overstayed my welcome.