This question (or questions) is about converting a military mauser 98, such as a VZ 24 for example, to a sporter. The bolt handle is the only real troublesome item to me. For all the other issues, I pretty much know what I want.

My gunsmith will do whatever style bolt handle I want. He has his preferences, and charges according to the difficulty. I don't really have a good idea of the going and reasonable price these days to weld on a new handle. I suspect it's over $100, perhaps a lot more.

I'll try to keep this simple, but don't promise to be successful. I need to give enough info, so you can understand my dellema.

I have seen some really beautiful pictures of custom bolt handles on this forum.

Ok, I'll try to seperate this into four possible solutions. Note that forging the original bolt handle is not included as an option. Also note that all options result in a bolt handle that clears the scope. I am assuming that all four options will require that the receiver will have to be notched minimally just enough to allow the new bolt handle to close properly.

(1) I could buy a whole Mark X bolt, (assembly or striped) and fit it to the military receiver. Cost about $100.

Say the other three options share this bolt handle from Brownell, or one very similar: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.as...le=CLASSIC+BOLT+KNOB



or perhaps this one: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=524815



Or maybe this one: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=132867



(2) With this option the bolt is turned straight down, as often seen on DG rifles. The knob is then positioned toward the front of the trigger guard.

(3) The handle is staight but kicked back, with the knob more lined up with the position of the trigger.

(4) Using the same Talley knob, but kicked back and arched back and out, very similar to the FN, or Husqvarnas, except with a tear drop knob, rather than round and flat/checkered on bottom.

Other than appearance, the main differences are with #1 & #4 options the bolt handle will fit stocks already pre-cut for the handle (FN or Mark X)

#2 & #3 options will require selection of a stock that allows the bolt handle notch to be cut to fit the specific angle of the dangle. A custom stock most likely. These bolts look best, but will cost more because of the stock, unless I'm missing something. Also, it seems to me that they will make no difference in function - only looks. Am I correct - or no?

I'm sort of leaning toward just replacing the bolt assembly with a Mark X bolt because it is simple, but I sure do like the looks of the more classic handle. Also, it's a shame to not use the original bolt. Not knowing any better, I would assume that the Mark X bolt handle will be the strongest, since welding will not be necessary. Am I correct?

Finally, I'm wondering if anyone has shaped and curved one of the Talley or similar handles, then welded it on to end up similarly positioned as the FN. To me that seems to solve three issues. This way it mostly has the classid look (FN with tear drop knob), yet will fit any stock pre-notched for the FN or Mk X, and I can utilize the original bolt.

I sure would like to read some discussion and input from gunsmiths and others on this subject. Your ideas and feed back is appreciated. Pictures would be great too.

KB

when you decide to work on a Mauser '98 get it the way you want it.....not the way your smith wants to make it! There's no way to do one cheap so get it your way!!!!

Personally I like the Dakota knob.....I like the slight swept back design and the way it attaches makes it easier to attach.(tip on) It requires a groove be cut into the receiver to allow it to function but this isn't a difficult task!

Prices range a lot for installing one.....the lowest price I know of is $75.....

This is one I just finished for a Mauser. It is the one going on Maddog's 416 taylor.

Mr Kobe did a fine job but I'm with Vapodog in I like my bolts slightly swept back.

Dubell is putting a straight classic Mauser bolt like the Kobe one above on my MRC1999SA

Here is a fine job at a minimal price.

http://www.bobsgun.com/

I've seen a lot of quality bolt handles welded on.

IMHO, Dennis Olson does a great job and the looks are better than most. And his basic bolt job sounds like what you would prefer.

Go cheap or go Dennis!

That says to send bolt only.....who is supposed to alter the action for the new bolt handle to fit?.....IMO $50 for half the job isn't much of a deal!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
That says to send bolt only.....who is supposed to alter the action for the new bolt handle to fit?.....IMO $50 for half the job isn't much of a deal!

Well, to be quite honest, I've always done that myself, even when Dennis does a bolt handle for me. It's so easy to do, I just never gave it a thought!

And then there is bolt bluing. Those done for me by Mr. Olson have always blued up to match
the rest of the metalwork without any tell-tale
welding lines at all.

Some cannot do this, and I suppose that should make a difference. I've never had anyone but Dennis do a bolt handle installation for me, so
my experience is somewhat limited in that sense?

I have a bolt body from a Winslow mauser rifle I'll sell. Don't recall whether it's a mag face or std. A customer, many years ago, went on a hunt in Africa and had to (airline regulations) pack the rifles seperately from the bolts. The rifles disappeared, but the bolts made it . Not a good way to start his hunt.
If you're interested I can dig around & check it out.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:
Here is a fine job at a minimal price.

http://www.bobsgun.com/

I've seen a lot of quality bolt handles welded on.

I just got a bolt back from Bob - he's done several in the past, but this one absolutely looks like hell.

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:
Here is a fine job at a minimal price.

http://www.bobsgun.com/

I've seen a lot of quality bolt handles welded on.

I just got a bolt back from Bob - he's done several in the past, but this one absolutely looks like hell.

Thanks for the info, fireball! But as I said Dennis Olson does my bolt jobs, and I've never seen or heard of a bad one!

The old saying is still true then, you get what you pay for.

I really like the Talley. It is machined from solid stock, not cast...some people think that is better, I am one of those.
I have one, just haven't decided which project to put it on.

Friends-

Jim Baiar makes some fantastic looking bolt handles. They run about $16.00 but are worth it.

Talley's are a safe bet also.

Vapodog did my bolt handle on my BRNO and came out great. I'd just send it to him with a good return time.

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
Vapodog did my bolt handle on my BRNO and came out great. I'd just send it to him with a good return time.

Ahhhh. Now I know why he was offended by the $50.00 bolt job by "Bob"! He does good work, but apparently Bob doesn't? (According to fireball)

Now that's exactly why I wanted an in-house yellow pages!

Heres a rough pic of the bolt handle on my "project (not sure what the hell I'm gonna do) BRNO that vapodog did.

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
Heres a rough pic of the bolt handle on my "project (not sure what the hell I'm gonna do) BRNO that vapodog did.

Yes, it does look good! Some of us contemplating work need to know who among us can do such things!

Now if he will just finish that darned bolt jewelling jig!

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
Heres a rough pic of the bolt handle on my "project (not sure what the hell I'm gonna do) BRNO that vapodog did.

Yes, it does look good! Some of us contemplating work need to know who among us can do such things!

Now if he will just finish that darned bolt jewelling jig!

That is a Dakota bolt handle and I'm happy you like it......The first one I saw is one Jim Kobe did for me and I liked it so much I broke out my TIG welder and did a whole lot of practicing.....I now have eight of my own plus a few I've done for others.

With a bit of luck, the bolt jeweling jig should be done in a week or so....I did one this weekend but I'm not happy with it so I'll order some more stuff from Brownells and start over.

I'll post photos when I finally am happy with the end result!

Here is one Vapo did for me.




As far as a book listing AR members "in the business" I think it should be a book on custom rifles and the processes involved. This could include choosing the action, barrel and blank to how the metal work is done. Then in the back a list of AR members that do gunsmithing. This would be a voluntary list. You would not be in it unless you wanted.

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
Here is one Vapo did for me.




As far as a book listing AR members "in the business" I think it should be a book on custom rifles and the processes involved. This could include choosing the action, barrel and blank to how the metal work is done. Then in the back a list of AR members that do gunsmithing. This would be a voluntary list. You would not be in it unless you wanted.

There is already such a book. It's out of print, and a NEW ONE would be welcomed with open arms! It's called the GUN DIGEST REVIEW OF CUSTOM GUNS. Edited by Ken Warner.

Great bolt job!


Keep us posted on the bolt jewelling jig, Vapo!

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
Here is one Vapo did for me.




As far as a book listing AR members "in the business" I think it should be a book on custom rifles and the processes involved. This could include choosing the action, barrel and blank to how the metal work is done. Then in the back a list of AR members that do gunsmithing. This would be a voluntary list. You would not be in it unless you wanted.

There is already such a book. It's out of print, and a NEW ONE would be welcomed with open arms! It's called the GUN DIGEST REVIEW OF CUSTOM GUNS. Edited by Ken Warner.

Great bolt job!

quote:

Keep us posted on the bolt jewelling jig, Vapo!

Check my thread.....jeweling bolts.

Vapo's job looks damn good.

Here is one by Thomas Burgess on a 1909 Argentine. he charges $150 plus return shipping.



And this is one I had done using a Dakota Mauser bolt handle (the cast one) on a 1909 Argentine.

Does anyone have Jim Baiar's contact info?

I don't think he has a web site does he?
I had his brochure but can't find it.

Allen

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
As far as a book listing AR members "in the business" I think it should be a book on custom rifles and the processes involved. This could include choosing the action, barrel and blank to how the metal work is done. Then in the back a list of AR members that do gunsmithing. This would be a voluntary list. You would not be in it unless you wanted.

I'd buy that book. I hope it comes with lots of pics and detailed explanations of why a thing is done.

Patiently waiting... If you burn up the first key board, I'll send you another one.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Here's a few pictures. photobucket - since I don't know how to post pictures directly here. If anyone knows how to post the pictures directly here - go for it.
KB

Putting up pictures is fairly easy. You need a start and end tag with square brackets. The end tag has a backslash in it. I'll type it with spaces for you to look at. When you take the spaces out, the picture shows up.
[ img ] http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/874006000.jpg [ /img ]
Now with the spaces taken out.

If you see a picture that you like, you can right click on it, then select properties(probably at the bottom). That will show you the URL address of the pic, just click and drag over it to highlight it, then you can copy with either, Edit Copy, or press and hold the Ctrl key, then the C (to copy), Ctrl V will paste what you've copied last.

Also if you reply with quote on a post that has a picture in it, you will see what the image tag looks like.

Here is one that I look at when I think that some of my attempts are bad.(not mine)

1) I started out with bending Mauser bolt handles with the bending block kit from Brownells:
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.as...+BOLT+FORGING+BLOCKS
I also sprung for someone to get a Oxyacetylene set up ~$600, welder's paste, buttressing threads heat sink to screw into the bolt body, and a giant mill vise in the center of the shop. It takes two guys, one to heat the handle and one to pound. With [quick and dirty] me running the show, it is 15 minutes per bolt. When my perfectionist brother is in charge, it takes all day for one stupid bolt.

This makes a strong bent handle, but the handle is short.



This is one of my quick and dirty 15 minute jobs. I have not even cleaned it with the di grinder. Does that handle look short to you?

2) Then there we got a TIG welder ~$1500, and made our own bolt handles on the lathe or bought them cast from brownells


Here is a bolt handle I designed myself
It is supposed to be usable with gloves:




3) Then I had a real gunsmith cut my bolt handles off, TIG weld and extension, and then weld them back onto the bolt body.

I had to make a fixture to fancy up the weld on the lathe. [You may be wondering how I got 30 different welded bolts to each spin on the handle axis.]
Here is a pic of one before and one after I fancied it up"



How the above processes cost me.
1) 30 bolt handles 1999 to 2004 [That is ~ $20 per bolt handle on the cost of the Oxyacetylene]
2) 5 bolt handles 2004 to present [that is $300/ bolt handle on the cost of the TIG welder + $5 for the bolt handle from Brownells]
3) 5 bolt handles in 2001 @$15 each, 30 bolt handles in 2006 @ $60 ea to the gunsmith, and $1 in Emory cloth, Scotch Brite, and steel wool for me to polish it.

I have ~ 70 altered bolt handles now.

The question for me now with the last 30 handles is "Should I notch out the bolt handle, or should I notch out the receiver?"

I think I will notch out the handles, so that everything stays interchangeable.

Z1R makes some inspiring bolt handles and TIG welds them together and notches out the receiver. This makes a great low scope mount set up, but I am afraid I will get confused with matched bolts and receivers.

quote:

Originally posted by Lar45:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I don't know how to post pictures directly here.
KB

Putting up pictures is fairly easy. You need a start and end tag with square brackets. The end tag has a backslash in it. I'll type it with spaces for you to look at. When you take the spaces out, the picture shows up.
[ img ] http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/874006000.jpg [ /img ]
Now with the spaces taken out.

If you see a picture that you like, you can right click on it, then select properties(probably at the bottom). That will show you the URL address of the pic, just click and drag over it to highlight it, then you can copy with either, Edit Copy, or press and hold the Ctrl key, then the C (to copy), Ctrl V will paste what you've copied last.

Also if you reply with quote on a post that has a picture in it, you will see what the image tag looks like.

Thanks a lot lars. I had been trying to figure that out for a long time. I work with computers a lot, and sometimes they frustrate me. I still had to work with your coaching about 45 minutes before I got it.

I went back and edited my earlier post and got the pictures to work rather than a link to photobucket. That's one of the best features of this forum, editing is a useful tool.

KB

Here's a few pictures.

Here is the starting point, the basic VZ24 military action:

Everyone knows this one as factory MK X, which is #1 option in my initial posting: Quote: 1) I could buy a whole Mark X bolt, (assembly or striped) and fit it to the military receiver. Cost about $100.

Here are examples of Number 2 option, straight classic handle: Quote: (2) With this option the bolt is turned straight down, as often seen on DG rifles. The knob is then positioned toward the front of the trigger guard.





and classic DG handle, which I doubt will clear a scope:

t=1179094178

Here's #3 option: Quote: (3) The handle is straight but kicked back, with the knob more lined up with the position of the trigger.

If I was working with a stock that had no bolt cut, this is the handle I would use, because I think it looks the best.

These are Vapodog's Mauser projects using the Dakota handle:


And option #4: Quote: (4) Using the same Talley knob, but kicked back and arched back and out, very similar to the FN, or Husqvarnas, except with a tear drop knob, rather than round and flat/checkered on bottom.

This picture is of a factory FN bolt, but it is as close as I have to the image of the same configuration made with a Talley blank. To me it is not difficult to imagine the Talley shaped thus, but to a gunsmith it may conjure up headaches.


This last picture is of my 35 Whelen on a military mauser converted. The handle was cut off an FN by the smith and he welded it onto my bolt. It is so close to the FN original that I can't tell the difference comparing it to some of my original FNs, except the stem is perhaps a little more slender. This handle serves me well, and feels good to use.

I made the choice to use the FN cut-off because I wanted to use the Butler Creek stock I already had to save money. I planned to maybe replace the stock later, but now I like the way it handles so well, that I consider it finished.

Note how the bolt handle just conforms with the pre-cut bolt slot in the stock. No stock modifications were required for the bolt handle - just a little bedding and opening the barrel channel, but otherwise it was a drop in. To my thinking this is a good looking and functional bolt handle and it gives me the option of dropping it into a stock quickly, and start shooting, and yet later I can put it into a good looking wood stock if that's what I decide I want to do, and it will still look good.

If I made a decision right now, and could find a gunsmith to do the job, I would want a handle that looks and functions like the last two pictures, made from a Talley, with a curved stem like the FN. It seems to me like the stem could be heated and curved before being welded onto the bolt. Seems logical to me, but I don't do gunsmith work, and I've never seen an example done that way either, and I don't know why this is so.

Another way of saying it is that the handle would be attached at the root basically the same way as shown by Kobe above, starting at the root going straight down, but the knob ends up about the same place as the Dakota handle, because of the curve in the stem, rather than being kicked back at the root.

I hope that makes sense, and the next sentence too.

It is very likely that the same can be achieved by slightly angling the stem back at the root, which would require less curve in the stem, to place the knob and everything in the correct position, especially to mesh up with the pre-cut slot in the stock.

I like the smaller and more tear drop shape of the Talley knob: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=233412


But I also like this Wheeler Engineering bolt handle from Midway. The knob appears a little bigger than the Talley, and shaped slightly different, and looks to me very similar to the Dakota handle Vapodog uses:http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=132867


KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
If I was working with a stock that had no bolt cut, this is the handle I would use, because I think it looks the best.

I can assure you that those bolt handles are from Dakota (and from Brownells).
Further I'm a bit honored that you have chosen to keep one of my photos!

Another option is to use a M70 bolt handle. I have a guy not too far from me who has a bunch of M70 stripped bolt bodies (smooth or knurled) that he sells for $50(he bought out the inventory from a Winchester warranty station). I replace CZ 550 bolt knobs with these, Harry McGowen charges $43 to weld it on, makes a nice looking set up.

McGowen is the reason that I take such precautions about who does bolt handles for me, and I have mostly avoided the process altogether until now, and I'm reconsidering. Many years ago, I had his shop do a bolt handle weld job for me, and I found out what a $43 job looks like.

It was not a good job at any price. It was so bad that I abandoned the project, and traded off the action at a gun show. The weld seam was obvious. I don't know how strong it was but I considered it butchery. Since then I cringe every time I see the name in print or spoken in reference to gun stuff of any sort. I mean that bolt handle was what I would call a bubba class act.

Maybe I should learn to say what I mean. I don't like to say bad things about gunsmiths, and maybe I shouldn't this time.

It's a odd thing about replacement bolt handles. I have found a significant difference in the levels of what is acceptable to different people. I was actually shocked at the thought that many McGowen customers actually found that handle acceptable. Every time I read something about satisfaction with their other work, barrels, etc. I think the same thing.

I belabor this point because, folks, I think there is a real difference in a $150 bolt job compared to the stuff I saw from McGowen's shop. Granted, that was over twenty years ago, and things might have changed, but I really doubt it.

KB

If a guy was to setup and turn some bolt handles on a lathe, what grade of steel would be best? Is a low carbon 1020 acceptable or is the strength of 4130 or 4140 needed?
I'm guessing that you probably wouldn't want a leaded steel, but what about a resulphurised like 1119 or 1141 that is used in the Win 94 actions?
thanks.

Personally, I can see no reason to use something better than AISI 1018-1020 or even 1117 but would most certainly avoid the leaded steels like 12L14.

I can also see no reason for anything higher in carbon content than .20

I have piles of 4140 and 1020 in my shop, so bolt handles get made of 4140, as they seem to TIG weld well.

The 1020 would probably work just as well.


The big stress on a bolt handle is when an overloaded cartridge gets stuck. Jumping on the bolt handle like a pogo stick will sometimes yank out the case. Sometimes it rips off the case head rim. Sometimes it will rip off the extractor claw. Sometimes it will break the bolt handle extension weld.

The bolt handle steel and weld do not have to be too good to be better than the case rim or the extractor claw.