This is an attempt for me to settle the issue which rifle I should acquire/build to hunt SA buff in 2 years.Read most/all notes re this subject and as usual ,people are particular and firm in their respective beliefs.this boils down to me to choose between 3 calibers 375 H&H,375 RUM and 416 Rem Mag,I exclude the 416 Rigby as its supposed to be for "real men".My problem of course is that I dont have an opportunity to get acquainted with the kick and power of the respective rifles and have to rely on well meaning shared experience.I swayed back and forth between the lighter (?just adequate ) 375 and the OK caliber of 416.The "Saeed" mod of a quasi 375 RUM opens the field even wider.I am sure lots of others have the same problem.I weigh 170 lbs,62 y old,can shoot 338 without problems,nothing worse known.Consideration are cost,but more importantly kick and possible flinching as well as "adequacy" of caliber.I dont see myself going for elephant or hippo,too expensive or to close to my own genetic tree.Maybe folks that are familiar with all can give comparative analysis,this being more helpful than expounding on the virtue of 1 particular caliber.I shoot a 300RUM just fine,which makes me think that a 375 RUM ought to be same or better?Some folks believe a 375 is truly enough a 416 just good insurance,while I understand that type of rational,where is the happy practical solution?

Thanks for all help

sheephunter

I don't know who told you a 416 Rigby was only for "real men" but that's just plain silly! The recoil of a Rigby is no different or worse than recoil from a 416Rem. as long as it's loaded to normal levels. "Normal levels" being a 400gr bullet @ 2400fps, which is the same as Remington loads their 416.
If I were picking, I'd pick the 416 caliber and buy whichever rifle suited me the best. If a M70 is your favorite, buy it in 416 Rem., if the Ruger or CZ suits you better then a 416 Rigby would be the one.
As a pure buffalo rifle the 416 is far and away better than a 375 anything, IMO.

Sheephunter,

No experience with 375RUM. As to recoil between 416 Rem Mag and 375H&H, 416 Rem Mag wins hands down. It takes some getting used to. If you think recoil may be an issue, then I would be less inclined to go with the 416. I think most people can learn to shoot a 375H&H, but not everyone will be able to handle a 416.

John S is right, the 416 is a better buffalo rifle. 375H&H is more versatile and a fine buffalo rifle. I shot my buffalo with a 375H&H and he died quickly. In addition, I shot all of my plains game on that safari with the 375H&H. That said, I am headed to Tanzania in a month for 3 buffalo and am taking my 416 Rem Mag for the buffalo and my 375H&H for plains game and as a backup to the 416. My goal is to hunt buffalo every time I go on safari, so buying the 416 made sense.

If you are probably going to shoot one or two buffalo in your life time, then the 375H&H probably makes more sense. A fine cartridge for buffalo and an outstanding cartridge for plains game in the bushveldt. I would think the 375H&H would have broader application in North American hunting than would the 416.

As to the 375RUM, if you are going to hunt Africa with a 375, it has to be the H&H. Why? Well it just has to be.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Regards,

Terry

[ 07-26-2002, 08:34: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

Sheephunter,

I don't find the recoil of the various 416s more than the 375 - at least not enough to worry me.

I have hunted with the 416 Weatherby,416 Rigby Improved, 375 H&H and my own 375/404.

If memory serves me right, I shot 2 buffalos with a 375 H&H, may be 6-8 with each of the 416 Weatherby and 416 Rigby Improved. The rest of all the buffalos I have shot were with the 375/404.

The two PH I have hunted with and myself have tried to see if we could notice any differences in the "killing" power of all these different cartridges, and have come up with nothing. It seems if you hit the buffalo in the right place, it will run a few yards and die, hit it wrong and you you will have to add a few more shots at it. This is a fact regardless of caliber.

In fact, one year we shot 12 buffalos, and 8 were dropped with one shot each. My Ph commented how deadly the Barnes X 300 grain is on buffalo. I think these buffalo would have died just as quickly of hit by any other caliber.

I weigh 130 pounds, 5"6" and 52 years old. I have been shooting big bores for many years, and can handle the recoil of rifles up to the 460 Weatherby off the bench without too much hassle. I am the only "bone head" here who shoots these big rifles , as everyone else refuses to do it.

I have rifles up to the 475/416 Rigby - which is a beltless version of the 475 A&M magnum - which I can use for my hunting, but I always use my 375/404.

If I had the opportunity of taking a number of rifles with me on a hunt, I would love to take several calibers, including our bolt action 700 NE. But, travelling on airlines and going through customs have not made that easy.

So, I have decided a few years ago to just take one rifle and do all my hunting with - that has developed further to me building two identical rifles for all my hunts that include buffalo and elephants. Both rifles are in 375/404, I use one, and the other sits in the camp just in case somethign goes wrong with the other. Both use the same load.

Thanks lads,
very helpful and practical advice.Sounds like it really doesnt matter.Saeeds comparative analysis could not see an advantage for the 416 against the 375, assuming 400gr /416 against 300gr/375.
that might me because he is an exellent shot or because enough is enough.Rephrased,does the 416 at 400 gr have an advantage at less than ideal shot placement? As well as does one have to take those shots and cannot wait until better shot available?Does the 416 caliber offer "added insurance"?Trying to force the decision here by interpretation of presented facts,it does NOT really appear so.
So this would settle my question,if it werent for the statement that there is really no discernible difference in felt recoil assuming again 416/400gr and 375/300gr.
Now we are back to the question do you prefer blondes over brunettes?

Thanks a bunch

sheephunter

Now for the contrary advice,
sometimes it helps to sit on opposite benches.
Both John and T.Carr state that a 416 is (far) better a buffalo rifle than a 375,excluding possibly the 375 RUM.I value their simple summarily judgement.But to come to the bottom,and not trying to be critical( As outlined,personally I dont know)whats the opinion based on?Opinions heard from others,literature,personal comparisons?
There is no question that the 416 imparts more (destructive)energy,any bigger canon would impart even more.But we are not saying that bigger is better ? ,(well sometimes,but that is another topic!)What I am postulating is finding a suitable gun and round that will do the job 99.9% of the time,assuming proper shot placement and allowing for possible glitches.SO other than Saeeds opinion which is well described,is there contrary experience to show that a 416 is really better?Nevermind that bigger is always better thanks,sheephunter

If size matters, I am 195 lbs and 6'1" and younger than Saeed by a GOOD bit. I shoot a .416 Dakota and .450 Dakota for buff. If I was 130lbs and 5'6" I would shoot a .375/404 (aka 375 Dakota).

As we have discussed to death, shot placement is everything. Buff can be easily and effectively taken with a .338 with no worries. HOWEVER, you can easily see physics at work when you hit a buff with a 400gr or 500gr bullet delivering 5000 to 6500+ ft/lbs of energy. Bullet cross section and energy does make a difference.

The .375H&H delivers about 4300 ft/lbs at the muzzle
The .375/404 delivers about 4700 ft/lbs at the muzzle
The .416 Dakota/Rigby delivers about 5400 ft/lbs at the muzzle
The .450 Dakota/460 Wby delivers in excess of 6600 ft/lbs at the muzzle

At the end of the day, recoil is a consideration. If you can�t shoot a cannon accurately, you best stick with a pea-shooter like a .375. But real men shoot .416s.

Gentlemen, start your engines, may the flame wars begin! There is something for everyone to disagree with in this post.

Sheephunter,

At the range most buffalo are shot (under 100 yards, more likely 50-60 yards), if there is bad shot placement it's going to be because you screwed up. I can't think the 416 is going to be of any help in those situations.

As to the 416 being a better buffalo cartridge, well the simple answer is "bigger is better" (assuming one can shoot "bigger" as well one can shoot "smaller"). I will be able to provide you with empirical evidence upon my return from Tanzania.

If you really want a buffalo rifle, then buy a 458 Lott or similar. If you really want a safari rifle, that you can use on the occasional buffalo, then get a 375.

I disagree that there is no difference between the felt recoil of a 416 and 375. I have two almost identical rifles (the 416 is slightly heavier because of the thicker barrel) and the recoil IS noticeably stronger with the 416. I consider myself relatively recoil tolerant, but the 416 kicks more than the 375. It is not painful or unmanageable from field positions, but it will get your attention when shooting from the bench.

When you go on safari in couple of years, you are going to shoot one buffalo and anywhere from 5 to 10 plains game. I would think the 375 is going to kill that buffalo deader-than-hell if you do your part. In addition, you will be able to tell your buddies, "See that zebra rug, got him with my .375 H&H." And they will say, "Isn't that too much gun for a zebra?" And you will say, "Nah, that .375 is just the medicine for that tough plains game in Africa, plus I was hunting buffalo that trip so I needed my .375."

Regards,

Terry

I've shot several buffalo with the 416, and my hunting partner has taken several with his 375Ackley. Good shot placement and they both do an equal job. BUT, bad angles and a juiced up buffalo is where the 416 and larger calibers strut their stuff. More knockdown power. Brain shooting one or hitting them in the neck to break it is not a sufficient test to compare the two. Most folks can handle the recoil of the 416 if they practice a bit, it is NOT all that much worse than a 375.
I personally have moved to the 450 Dakota. I had a 458 LOTT but was not satisfied with the rifle so I sold it and built the current 450. Kicks like hell but I can manage it. I don't like to mess around with a marginal caliber on buffalo, and in MOST hands that is just what it is.
Saeed is not one of MOST hunters, he is very skilled and has vast experience, thus allowing him to get by just fine with calibers that might not be so great in other's hands.
If one wants to pack one rifle for safari, then the 375 makes sense. BUT, I wouldn't dream of making such an important trip with just one rifle. I'll take two every time, regardless of game to be hunted. And since I'm taking two I want rifles suited for different jobs, so the 375 rarely sees Africa in my hands. A 338-416 combo makes more sense to me and worked quite well when I employed it.

Sheephunter,

Is your head spinning? Are you walking around the house mumbling, "375 or 416, 375 or 416, 375 or 416, which one - I can't make up my mind!"

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Did I forget to mention that your rifle MUST be CRF. (Oh no, let's not open that can of worms).

Regards,

Terry

P.S.
I must admit that the reason I settled on a 416 for my buffalo hunt to Tanzania, was primarily because of John S's advice to similar questions you are posting here. Thanks, John.

[ 07-26-2002, 21:44: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

Terry,
I hope you have a great hunt in TZ later this year, and that new 416 puts down a whopper of an old buff for you! I'm sure if you do your part it will hold up it's end of things!
Just to expand on a few things I mentioned earlier, I'd add that a 416 or any big bore can give the hunter a psychological boost when things don't go quite as planned. And that can help them "over the top" in some cases. Just knowing they have a real "thumper" in their hands can calm the nerves a bit. It won't make up for a poor first shot, but sometimes even a good first shot doesn't guarantee an uneventful end to a buffalo hunt.

Thanks guys,
part of the enjoyment going hunting is finding the "right" equipment - I guess.Never mind the pain finding it.Just listening to your comments make me chuckle and love the sport.I do shoot a 338 ,for elk only, which should be plenty for plains game.Also hopefully will get to know my new 300 RUM if I ever get decent brass.So that makes me a potential 2 gun tourist in Africa.
I shot elk with a ? 2 lb 280 K-Mart special once at 250y,had to because my 338's scope ,a Burris totally iced up and the guide had this peashooter.
Shot the elk down alright.So we know our "ideal caliber" is maybe more belief than fact.SO I keep wnadering into walls,mumbling ...

sheephunter