What are the advantages over stainless
I ask to help with making up my mind which 1999 to get.

Also, can the CM 1999 be safely color case hardened?

Thanks rob

[ 02-14-2003, 04:35: Message edited by: Recoil Rob ]

Recoil Rob---

I haven't seen a SS Montana so have never done a A/B comparison, but based on experience with other actions in both materials, the SS will have a "gummy" feel to it, especially under the pressure of cocking and extraction. I don't care for SS but many disagree.

I need to go back and look at some of the posts but I recall they were going to use two different "varieties" of SS for the bolt and for the action.....wouldn't that eliminate the gummy feel?

DB Bill--

What makes SS feel gummy is exactly the same thing that makes it stainless......chrome and nickel.

Jack and fellow AR members,

I am biased against stainless steel and have been since I hit my first nuclear power plant. The stuff was everywhere in the primary loop, in different grades and types depending upon application.

The primary mechanical problem is galling: that is one metal surface adhering to another metal surface during mechanical contact, and then pulling "chunks" out of the other surface when separated. We used pure graphite in an alcohol carrier to save the threads on things like valve caps.

The secondary problem with SS in general is due to exotic corrosion mechanisms such as chloride stress corrosion and lead stress corrosion (different SS alloys are subject to different "bugs").

In the hunting field they scatter light almost as badly as a diffraction grating, well maybe not quite that bad -- but bad.

I do own a couple of SS firerms, but they are guns that only came in SS like my S&W 696 .44 Special.

For rough applications I have a couple of parkerized or phosphated rifles.

jim dodd

It depends on the grade of the steel, a little polishing would remove any "gummy" feel detected. My Freedom Arms revolver is made entirely out of stainless and all the components are precisely and tightly fit together and the gun functions precisely like a swiss watch. Also, my gold match Kimber is also made of stainless and the slide and frame also fit tightly and precisely and it's been functioning flawlessly from the day one. So what is the problem with stainless steel? Nothing. Good luck.

Mingo---

You're right. All steel will gall under the right conditions... Stainless steel does it under the conditions found in firearms. It's NOT a suitable material for high pressure bolt guns.

Precipitation hardening grades like the 17-4PH found in the Casulls is very good material.....for a handgun. It's not for rifles.

Savage 99-- Rust prevention in firearms is called bluing. If the factories did a better job of it (like they did prior to WW-II) there would be no need for the other cheap tricks they throw to the gullible public.

Practical experience is much more valuable than being well read.......especially when those doing the writing are spreading propoganda for the gun companys.

JBelk,

I had a few questions for you if you would be so kind to answer.

1. What material for the action (SS vs. moly) would you choose for a rifle intended to be used in a wet environment? For example, hunting various species in the wet regions of Alaska.

2. Given that much of this discussion is based on rifles intended to be used for hunting this next one's a bit off topic. I'm curious if you were to build a BR/varmint rig using one of the custom actions out there would you base your decision primarily on materials of construction (i.e., the aluminum actions w. SS parts at heavy wear areas, vs. the SS actions)? Examples of the aluminum actions would be the Stolle and Viper while examples of SS might include the Nesika. I'm not sure about metal content but I think the Hall may be chrome/moly.

I hope that last one made sense. I'm just trying to attach some significance of your last post to my own future plans.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Reed

I just looked at the bolt lugs on two of my pre 64 M70's. I hope this is the surface that Belk is talking about? For sure Belk will now say that pre 64 M 70's were never any good after you read what's next.

One of these is a Featherweight in 30/06 that has been fired about 200 times. It could pass for almost new except that the bolt lugs have gauling on their surfaces! This is not just something that you can only feel with your built in profilometer, your fingernail. You can see deep gouges. The next pre 64 is my old .243 that has thousands of shots thru it. The bolt lugs are also gauled and look similar in fact to the one with only 200 shots thru it.

Next I looked at the lugs on my new (10/02) M 70 SS Classic in 7 MM WSM. This rifle has about 300 shots thru it so far. These lugs are like new with no gauling!! I am not kidding.

Go and look at your bolt lugs and get back on this.

[ 02-15-2003, 20:53: Message edited by: Savage99 ]

Sometimes I think this issue of galling gets outta hand. Galling galling occures mostly with metals that form a rapid oxide layer like stainless, Al, Ti. You can see good examples of galling in stainless like 17-4, 316, 304 (higher Cr contents). Most of my rifles in stainless are 416R and I dont see what many of you fear? Nuts and bolts in the food process industry that are 316/304 can/do/will gall badly, mostly from the heavey pressure exerted on on the threads.

There are several ways to cure your fears... Use a stainless brl and a CrMO bolt, lubricate bearing surfaces and dont worry, use Anti-seize compound. When you use a anti-sieze compound understand what you are useing... Many copper based anti-seize compounds contain silicone dioxide (quartz) and are not intended for frequent "movement" just bolts. Nickel anti-seize would be better if the copper contains quartz. When you apply Nickel anti-seize you may notice a sqweaking sound on the moving parts... especialy the lugs, this is normal.
Another is that you take a bar of "dead soft" copper(or lead) and burnish it over your moving parts hard enough and enough times for build up, then lubricate. Other wise just live in your own fears I guess.

Savage99---

If you pull the barrel on those pre-64s you'll probably find the lug seats are smooth. Most pre-64s have the grooves in the locking lugs you describe, when new.

I resent the implication that I'd change my beliefs because they don't fit the argument.

When you ask what I know, what I believe, and what I've seen through actual experience, you get the truth. That's all.

I DON'T recycle what I've seen written by others without giving credit and the reference. I write from experience, experiments, and sworn testimony of myself and others. If what I write is an *opinion* it's labeled as such. If what I write in hyperbole to illustrate a point or an attempt at humor, it's labeled as such. Get used to it.

Smallfry---

Thanks for bringing up a serious contributing factor for my opinions of stainless steel for bolt actions.

When ANY steel is subjected to pressure and friction under stress, there's a distinct possibility of galling. I've done it to a wide variety of actions, myself.

The problem seems to be, judging by the calls and email I get from customers throughout the world, that stainless steel firearms have been advertised and hyped as "maintenence free" and rust proof. What this does, in my opinion, is to lull shooters into a less than optimum schedule of lubrication.

ALL bolt action rifles should have a small dab of high pressure lubricant on the lugs. When it's not there on chrome moly actions there usually isn't a problem until pressures get higher than safe anyhow. Then the lugs gall.

With SS the pressure levels that can cause bolt lug galling are much lower.

That's the nature of the alloys. 400 series SS takes more abuse than 300, but are much more likely than CM or case hardened mild steel to fail at the levels seen commonly in centerfire rifles.

The current SS rifles are usually not square enough to reduce the pressure on the lugs, either. An out of square bolt face GREATLY increase lug friction. If you add to that the shooter that figures since it can't rust why oil it.........galled lugs results.

I use STP oil treatment.....just a smear, on the back of each lug, the cocking cam, and the extraction cam.

That's my best guess as to why I hear of at least one stainless steel rifle a week that's galled on the cocking cam, extraction cam (nearly guaranteed on a BUNCH of SS M-70 WSMs), or the locking lugs.

CM is more forgiving of bad maintenece than SS. That's backwards from current popular thinking.

Hopefully forums and discussions like these will save an action someday.

Ok, so basic question here, should I change my order on my M99 SA from SS to CM because on the 201st shot I won't be able to open the bolt because it is gallded so badly it is frozen?

Seriously, are we talking about complete failure of the mating surfaces of the bolt and lug raceway?

Please advise as I may need to make adjustments to my order.

elkslayer I dont think ur ss will freeze solid just keep it lubricated. But in retro... DO NOT FEAR CrMo actions, they like stainless will only rust if you neglect them. Personaly I prefer CrMo actions on stainless brls.

Reed---

I hunt in conditions as tough as anywhere and used to do it backpacking. From the sea islands of Florida to the timberlines of several western states. I've never had a problem with a rust blued guns, properly treated and wiped off every day or two.

For a day in and day out rainy hunt I'd seal the inletting as Bob Emmons describes on the historical audio tape (available from the ACGG.org web site). I've talked to a LOT of people that've used it......one guy for six weeks at a time in Northwest Territories. It works.

It's inert electrical silicone "bedded" to preclude air or water to touch the metal under the stock.

I'd be tempted to carry a SS single action, but I've never had a problem with my rust blued custom Blackhawk rusting in the last 15 years but, except for south Texas and a couple weeks in Florida, it's been a desert dweller.

The question about the BR actions is wasted on me. I've owned a few BR rifles but nothing on the new crop of custom actions. I'm interested in them like I am airplanes......I watch them go by and I'm curious about the ones that strike my fancy, but don't own one or read and study about them.

My all time favorite varmint actions are, in order, 1) Sako Rhimakii, 2)CZ-527, 3)Remington XP and 722. I really have no need or desire for anything else........except a 2/3 scale Ruger Number One for center-fire and rim-fire.

You listening Ruger???

They haven't in thirty five years.....sheesh!

[ 02-16-2003, 02:24: Message edited by: JBelk ]

Elkslayer---

The only real problem I've heard of with SS rifles "officially" is barrel failures in *really cold* weather. Several have failed but without injury.

The point is proper care and lubrication.

Smallfry mentioned anti-seize. That's a good idea. So is the burnished-in coat of copper or lead.

For stainless I use a moly-based heavy grease (Lubriplate), but on my own guns I'd be tempted to use old fashioned (and outlawed) plumber's putty. It's white lead (lead oxide) in a very heavy grease. You'd have to REALLY abuse an action to seize it.

The REAL secret is to NOT use brake clean-type solvents that completely de-grease the steel.

It's amazing to see the surface of steels that have been oiled for a long time under the microscope compared with "freshly cleaned". Under a metalurgical microscope and polorized light, the difference in steel can be seen and the value of old oil seen in dramatic relief. Wipe off the carbon fouling with Hoppes or Shooter's Choice but never completely de-grease it. That goes for CM guns, too. The only time a gun should be grease free is just before bluing.

If you see grease build up anywhere, you put on too much. What sticks to the last .050 of a toothpick will lube an entire action.....

maybe twice.

So here we are with the Winchester, Ruger and others making CF rifles from stainless steel and one gunsmith is saying that they will fail due to gauling.

I looked at my new SS M 70 and it has no gauling after 300 shots but a old non stainless steel M 70 with less shots thru it has gauling.

I also have another old M70, the 243 I mentioned before and it has gauling. I shot the barrel out on it and since I bought it new in 1957 it seems like the new barrel on it now will last another thirty years or so when the gauling might be worse or not.

Who still has stuff left over from Y2K? A lot of people believed that too!

I think JBelk is right. People think SS is fine to neglect...more so than CM anyway. The problem is just this, you still need to lube the lugs and raceways, period... even in a CM action. Anyone that has a problem with galling has neglected his gun and is no fault of the steel.

If one compares the factory bluing vs. ss in bad weather you're always going to do better having a ss barrel and action, period. If you have a quality rust blued rifle this would be alot better, but I would still choose the ss one... the bore is not rust blued and ss is still ss. I take mine to the field having already fired fouling shots and having the bore taped is all. A lightly oiled bore has not been consistant enough to count on for a first shot, sometimes up to three shots.

The bottom of my barrel and action gets a couple three coats of Shooters Choice Rust Prevent sprayed on it before the hunt and offers a very nice coat of protection. I spray the rest about every two or three days if it's getting rubbed off or smeared around alot. It's kind of greasy like and attracts some crap like you'd expect, but it doesn't let things rust at all. I wipe off anything that collects and recoat every few days if necessary and it works fine. Alot more work than ss rifles require, but rust on your nice rifle sucks!

J Belk wrote....

For a day in and day out rainy hunt I'd seal the inletting as Bob Emmons describes on the historical audio tape (available from the ACGG.org web site). I've talked to a LOT of people that've used it......one guy for six weeks at a time in Northwest Territories. It works.
It's inert electrical silicone "bedded" to preclude air or water to touch the metal under the stock.

Would you mind elaborating on this?

Thanks, Rob

savage 99--

said:

quote:

---

So here we are with the Winchester, Ruger and others making CF rifles from stainless steel and one gunsmith is saying that they will fail due to gauling.

---

You're obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer.. I NEVER said that a SS "will fail" as an absolute as you represent. Either read my post carefully and THEN respond or have the decentcy to hide your ignorance by keeping quiet.

What I've said about SS actions is metallurgical fact and is provable and can be duplicated any time you want to pay for it.

Just because a factory makes something sure doesn't mean it's worthwhile. Remember the VL-22?

In my opinion, the factories are pushing SS guns because caustic bluing solutions are rated as hazardous waste and expensive, in labor and energy, to maintain and also expensive to get rid of.

The major gun companies haven't yet shown any inclination to make firearms *better* since WW-II, only cheaper. I feel this is the latest move in that direction.

Stainless steels are more expensive in raw form and tooling is marginally more expensive, but MUCH cheaper in the long run due to a serious reduction in labor and associated heat-treat and bluing cost.

Stainless has been advertized and touted as needing less maintenence. Through my direct experience, this is not the case. Stainless needs *better* lubrication than normally used on chrome-moly actions and failure to provide it has already ruined several actions.

That warning goes for re-barreling gunsmiths too. Browning fitted earl A-Bolt barrels too closely and the threads pressure welded together on many actions. After it became known, the 'smiths started sawing the factory barrels off and boring the shank out of the action.

The same problem can occur when fitting new barrels to any SS action. They won't take the tight tolorences of CM actions. A new thread being single pointed is usually fitted hand tight leaving the last thread for the wrench. Many times, after a dozen cut and tries, a 'smith will leave two or ever threads for the wrench. A SS action can bite you very hard in the wallet if the same is done with them.

Recoil Rob---

EMMONS' STOCK SEALING----

I'll do this by memory since the tape is somewhere unknown to me.

ALL custom hunting stocks are finished inside and out. There is NO raw wood in a good stock.

Emmons used a 3M product that's used to seal electrical connections in transformer stations and switching units. I don't know the proper name of it, but it's similar to the "water pump grease" cited by Linden, Howe, and Baker.

The 3M product is a silicone sealer that's NOT an adhesive. It doesn't soak into or attach to the wood and can be peeled out if needed. In use, the metal parts of the rifle are heated to drive off moisture and paste waxed heavily and buffed as you would a fine car. The silicone is placed in the inletting in a stripe down the middle so that when the metal is replaced the silicone spreads into all nooks and crannies of the inletting and occupies all the area that may be air now. (With the tightly fitted Emmons stocks it sure didn't take much silicone). The excess is wiped off the outside and the rifle is ready to go.

The mechanics of it is this: Rust is caused by oxidation. That means in order to rust there must be oxygen present. This oxygen usually arrives with moisture in the form of water or moist air. By completely and effectively sealing all access to the metal with the silcone there can be no rust.

It works very well.

Ok folks then lets have a survey. Will everyone with a SS rifle please look at it close to see if there is any gauling and of course compare it to a non stainless one.

As I reported above I have one SS M 70 and it has less gauling than the other old M 70's that I have. Also a friend of mine was up to the house last night. He has owned as many rifles as anyone and was a dealer. He collects old M 70's and he worked the action on my M 70 SS Classic last night and again said. "This is really smooth"

This rifle cannot be called "gummy" That's just wrong. The bolt cocks and cycles with ease from the shoulder. I have slicked the safety and it's quiet and smooth. I have a bunch of old M 70's and one was slicked and is a collector. None are smoother than this new SS M 70.

Some of the old Springfield 03's and prewar M 70's might be slicker but come on.

[ 02-16-2003, 22:22: Message edited by: Savage99 ]

Jim,

What actions are they recalling and why? I have my ideas. Is it a recall or kind of if you request it be fixed type deal?

Thanks.

I have never had problems with any of my SS rifles. My brother has had his M70's 300 ultra bolt lugs gall, real bad too... it was entirely HIS fault though, he neglects his guns probably more than anyone on this forum ever thought of. I know it can happen, and more easily than CM steel so I make sure to keep the lugs etc. well greased.

If a smith messed up the threads on your barrel or reciever, is this not something that he should take full responsibility for? Or is the problem one that can not be avoided even if you know what your doing? I've never been warned that the job was at my own risk, so how much of one is it really?

JBelk,

Re: Emmons stock sealing.

Makes sense, I'll give it a try if can find the right stuff. Is it a hardening type of silicone similar to GE's silicone II, but non-adhesive? Or does it stay soft?

Also I imagine it would affect point of impact, especially if the barrel was floated, so the gun should be re-sighted after sealing?

Thanks, Rob

[ 02-17-2003, 04:52: Message edited by: Recoil Rob ]

Brent,

I had a brand spanking new Stainless Stalker in the barrel vise years ago when they first came out, and was in the process of pulling the barrel to Ackley Improve it. The action spun about two and a quarter turn and came to a stop. I did about the only thing I could think of at that moment and reversed direction which 1/2 turn later proved futile.

I called Browning a few choice names while considering my option. There was LocTite present on what was left of the mangled and welded threads that were visible beyond the lug. I took the offending beast over to the bandsaw and removed the barrel at the shank. I contacted the customer and discussed the problem with him.

He decided to spring for a new stainless barrel and because he was a good repeat customer, I donated the labor. I figured that was a cheap education. I felt no obligation because the barrel seized during removal. I did nothing wrong and could not foresee that the barrel would seize so my hands were clean in that regard.

If I had somehow damaged the action or bent the barrel or otherwise ruined the weapon during the course of the work, I would be liable for that type of damage, but the barrel and receiver are threaded by the factory so that they can be assembled together. It is therefore only reasonable to assume that they too can be seperated if needed.

I gained a valuable education from this, and now when I pull a stainless barrel off an action, the customer is made aware that damage could occur during removal, and he acknowledges this possibility and assumes the risk by his signature before work begins.

Oh by the way, machining the remaining thread shank from the receiver and picking ones way thru mangled and seized threads is something you do not want to do much of... I haven't encountered this problem since, or, with any other stainless weapon. I guess once is enough.

Malm

G.Malmborg,

Are you saying that someone put Locktite on the barrel threads? How are you sure it was Locktite? What color was it? Did you contact Browning on this?

What is your opinion on stainless steel actions gauling?

I have to mostly agree with Jack on this. Stainless on stainless will gall. That is why Remington makes the locking lug sections of their bolts out of chrome moly. If the stainless is taken care of properly then it shouldn't be a problem, but most people don't take care of it.

I also have a Pre-64 M-70 with galled up locking lugs, but the seats are fine. Any locking lugs can gall, few do.

Malm - your experience with an A-Bolt mirrors mine. So close it's scary. They have improved it seems. And it seems to me that several manufacturors have used some sort of LocTite on their barrels.

I looked at the 1999 action at the SHOT show and spent a good bit of time talking to the guys there. To say I was impressed with them and the action would be an understatement. The three guys that went with me all agreed with me that for a rifleman, the action was the most impressive thing at the show. I think all told we are ordering six actions this week. Personally, I'm ordering a chrome moly long action and a SS short action. I don't think the SS actions will have a galling problem, but we'll see.

It seems that I may not be taking good care of the locking lugs on my bolt rifles. So far I have looked at only two of my old pre 64 70 and their lugs are gauled.

I would think that a lube that contains moly would be best. Also having an extreme pressure additive in the lube would not hurt. I am not positive about this oil vrs grease and I am thinking about it.

Such lubes are available. The pour point of a 75W-140 pure synthetic gear oil containing moly is -55F! There is a moly EP grease available that is rated to -50 F also. Perhaps some gun lube has these features right now?

The thing about ordinary oil under a shock load is that the full film oil is breached. This is what the solid moly is for. It's good for 500,000 psi if there is any there. Of course it's hard to have a full moly separation of the surfaces but even lesser amounts work very well. These facts have been proven in machinery for over 50 years now.

[ 02-17-2003, 19:36: Message edited by: Savage99 ]

HunterJim, Pardon me for asking, but are/were you a F___ing Nuke (if you were, you should understand the context of the question)? I was an ELT for 11 years, and your descriptions of Chloride stress corrosion and Neo-lube gave me some flashbacks.

Savage99,

Yes it was loctite. Yes I called Browning's HQ in Morgan, Ut and shared with them my thoughts on the matter, which they promptly took out of context and hung up.

My opinion on stainless and galling is this, "stainless steel galls". Everyone who works on firearms knows this, or, they will. Regardless of which material is used to make firearms, where there is metal to metal contact, you need to provide a protective barrier between them to reduce surface tension or friction. I keep a big tube of lubriplate on hand just for this purpose.

I don't currently own anything that is stainless, but have done so in the past. I have been in jungle climates and lived in the rain while carrying weapons so I pretty well know how to shield and protect a weapon from the environments. I clean and maintain my weapons everytime they're used so rust is not an issue.

If you are concerned with the issue of galling to the point of losing sleep, then you can do one of two things. You can get rid of it, or, learn to deal with it. Keep it clean and keep it lubed...

Malm

Savage99... If you like moly, moly anti-seizes have a VERY high content between 40-60% usually, as a bonus they typicaly are compatiable with most lubes. Moly lubes you buy in grease form mostly have 3%. One problem with bolts rifles (and other firearms for that matter) is that parts are not moving fast enough for good fluid film lubrication to occure, thus a person should go with heavier lubes. Many of the surfaces are boundary lubricated and have alot of metal to metal contact. Gear lubs, Draw waxs, heavey shock/load lubes are good (or STP like Jack Mentioned). If you go with the "burnish over" suggestion I made, use copper or lead. I use # 4 OFC copper grounding wire from Home Depot its like 25cents a foot, and is soft enough. When you burnish over the contact points Look at the lay direction of wear or machining and go across the grain, not with it... then lube.

PS> Dont take as the word of god its just what I do and know, I am still young and dumb.

[ 02-17-2003, 22:50: Message edited by: smallfry ]

smallfry,

That's what grease is for. It will provide a full film in many situations. That along with the EP additive and moly and I will be all set. Typical grease may have only 3% moly but the moly gets imbedded into the bearing surface. I would recommend this over burnishing with lead or copper. The moly is stronger than those metals in this application and will not make any build up that can be measured.

Copper is used in some lubes for extreme temperature applications.

STP is just a VI improver and the ZDP engine anti wear additive. It is not a friction modifier like moly. The zinc phosphate compound is just better suited to the enviornment of an engine.

Anti-sieze compounds would work on the lug surfaces but I see a need for a lube for the entire bolt including but not limited to the cocking cam and this is where the grease with the pure synthetic oil base stock will move at -50F. I am not against thier use I just feel that a EP grease, with moly and a synthetic oil in it is the best for this application.

It would be nice if someone knew of a commercial gun lube that would satisfy this application. It would be a lot easier for those without access to these commercial products.

*They* are all friction modifiers.

ZDP is an anti wear additive and not a friction modifier. It is not nearly as strong as moly nor as "slippery" in the "bolt" application but is compatable with engines and also is an intregal part of the additive package in terms of corrosion and anti foaming in an engine. It's just not the best application for a bolt that's all. Not only that but the STP contains no EP additive!

ANY differential material, fluid or solid is a "friction modifier" IMO.

GM,

My smith Dave said he has had Rugers with LocTite on the barrel threads and they were a bitch to break loose, as I was handing him my new Ruger 416 Magnum to rechamber!

He said it wasn't a big deal like some of them had been.

He said he's actually broke an action or two trying to get them loose with big cheater bars. I'm not sure what kind they were though.

I never had a problem with galling in all my experience using grease without moly so I doubt it makes much difference. Most of the time I use air tool oil for raceways and other stuff.

I see the burnishing with copper a good idea, it would offer a barrier that moly couldn't and if it was done well grease would be almost not necessary... I would still use it though.

If anything modifies the friction charicteristics, it is a modifier in some way.