Just looking for some suggestions on where to start looking. Bedded my (tang safety) Ruger 77, 1 inch into the barrel channel, fully floated for the rest of the way.

Horizontal spread is about 1/2", vertical spread about 2.5". Bolts are tight. What went wrong? What do I do to correct this?

Hi Dutch!

Check if the barrel and stock is moving when losing and tigthening the action bolts. It�s easy to feel even a very small movement if you hold one hand around the forend and barrel when loosing the action bolts.

Carefully inspect the bedding and look for any small pease of loose bedding compound or any other object that mabye have got in betveen the bedding and the action. If you notise movment when losing and tigthening the bolts and don�t find anything suspect in the bedding area a rebedding is unfortenally the solution.

If there isn�t any movment I would suggest removing the bedding under the barrel.

Veritical groups is often a result if the barrel isn�t cylindrical and the bedding extend out under the barrel.

Another possible problem could be if the locking lugs have bad contact. Check this if everything else seemes allrigth.

Hope you keep up with my staggering spelling

Stefan in a really plesant and sunny Sweden

Stefan, don't worry about your spelling. That came through just fine.

There is movement when I loosen the front bolt: the tip of the barrel moves up about 3 or 4 mm. Rebedding is the solution? Just so I don't make the same mistake again, what did I do wrong? I just put the action into the bedding (acraglas) and secured with rubber bands over the top. Do I need to tighten the front bolt more while the bedding is setting up?

Thanks for the help. Dutch.

Dutch,

Vertical stringing can be due to barrel vibration. Try a different load to get a different barrel time, so the bullet exits at the top or bottom of the swing.

Don

Dutch,
try putting some inletting black on the action and reseating it in place and tighten but do not over tighten the action screws. then take the rifle apart to see if you have any high spots that may be acting as a rocking point for the action, also the action should be level front to back, then carefully remove the high spots and do it all over again until when you put the action in with the inletting black and remove it everything is imprinted with the black. kind of tedious i know but this may be what you need to do before taking all of the bedding out and redoing it. let me know how you make out.
Dave

Dutch,

You used the right method with the rubber bands, but something has gone wrong. (I also wrap the barrel just inside the forend with enough tape to support it at the proper clearance all the way around as I bed the action in place with the rubber bands.)

From the way the barrel moves it sure sounds as if the action is under stress. I suspect the wood is crushing under the force of the screws.

Did you bed the action all the way back to the tang? Is there any chance that you have crushed the wood under the bedding at the tang?

If you tighten the front bolt first do you see movement at the tang (or barrel) when you tighten the rear bolt? If so I would suggest a pillar around the rear bolt. Any suitable piece of steel tubing (as in a Mauser) is enough to keep the wood from compressing again there. The tube should fit perfectly betwen the tang and the trigger guard. Rough up the outside of the tube with 80 grit or a file, and completely degrease it before rebedding. I would also suggest that you use a piece of oiled tape on the bottom of the recoil lug when you bed it. When the tape is removed you will have a slight clearance under the recoil lug.

A pillar for the front is a tougher problem. Does that model have the slanted front bolt? I've never bedded one like that, but if the wood is crushing due to the forces of the front bolt it could again explain the problem you are seeing.

I would try to cut a pillar that matched the receiver and bed it into place there as well. Sorry I can't be more specific.

Please let us all here know how it goes.

Don

Dave, I'll give that a try. It should tell me where the action is bearing before and after I tighten the front screw.

Don, this is the model with the slanted front screw. The tang does not move when I loosen the front screw, just the barrel tip. Something is bending where it shouldn't. I did bed the rear of the action in a separate step (the front is actually my third attempt, and I am ready to ........) For now, I'm going to assume I am not compressing the wood enough to matter. This is a laminated stock, and I am not torqueing down that hard (don't have a torque screwdriver, so I can't be more specific).

I'll see where things are bearing tonight, and go from there. Thanks for all the help.

Sounds to me like too much "up" pressure on
the barrel. It should be about #15 pressure as measured at the forend tip to move the barrel. In other words, rig a fish scale to the barrel, just ahead of the forend tip. Pull the two apart. When you see movement, not the force needed. If you want to get fancy, use a dial indicator to see the movement.
Try a different point of contact for the barrel. Move your pressure point foreward or back a bit. The harmonic nodes are every few inches on a barrel.
As an aside, you can visualize these nodes by hanging the barrel with string horizontally. Place loops of wire on the barrel. Ring the barreled action, gently, with a brass hammer or the like. The wire loops will move to the harmonic nodes. I have always thought that these quite places might be a good spot for the forend pressure point.
I like to use a "V" block set-up for the pressure point on the forend. I make it by putting PVC pipe wrap around the barrel, bact to 2" ahead of the receiver, and cutting away two rectangular sections to make my supports. Then glass bed.
Last thing to ponder. Make sure you did not glass bed the action rails or magazine box. You want the glass to be on the Tang, Ring and forend. This give three points. If you have it binding elseware it is not as likely to shoot well. Good Luck.

I think the rubber bands are the problem and you have a kink in the bedding...Try letting the barrel just settle in the glass with hand pressure and without any pressure and extend the glass in the barrel channel to about the end of the chamber or a mite more....

When you sucked up the rubber bands it pulls down in that area and the rest of the action and barrel lift, then when you tighten the action it puts an uplift on the barrel and its bouncing off the glass in the barrel channel...

If you must ust the rubber bands then use them only on the rear reciever ring then everything settles and works off the tang...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

It's easy to arm-chair quarterback, but the whole job needs to be done in one go, in my experience. I'd chalk it up to a lesson learned and Dremel it all out and do front and back all at once. Minor voids in the result can be filled separately (using moderate screw pressure (20 in-lb) on the touch-up run two days later), but the overall geometry must be set in one go with no screw presure.

I doubt very seriously if any "rubber band" could warp the action. Maybe an industrial bungee wound in place by Superman could.

Good luck,
Don

Don has a good suggestion noted above. May I offer another?

An example can be found in the bedding procedure used for Service rifles, such as the M14 and M1 Garand. In this procedure, a special fixture is used to hold the trigger guard open at a specified distance. When the bedding is cured, trimmed, and ready to go, the trigger guard is fully closed. On a properly bedded service rifle, the clamping force used to close the action should be considerable.

With a bolt action, as Don recommended, I'd do the whole thing at once. Then, instead of using the rubber bands, secure the rifle in the stock with headless screws for the initial bedding. After using LOTS of release agent (those who have been reading my posts for a while, should be grinning about now) especially on the screws, and covering well the outside overflow areas with masking tape, apply the compound, then squeeze the action and stock together by hand, with the headless screws in place. Let it cure, then proceed with the trimming and final seating.

Insofar as the stock is a laminate, it might be moisture RESISTANT, but not moisture PROOF. I have had no luck making pressure points, so I avoid them. Instead, I bed the recoil lug, chamber area, tang if needed, and the first 2 inches of the barrel channel, at the chamber end.

I once made a "poor man's" pillar bed using the following method: Measure carefully the outer diameter of the forward stock screw head. Subtract about .002 from that. Carefully enlarge the hole for the screw to that diameter, all the way to the action, leaving the wood rough.

On the inside of the stock, cut a small chamfer--not too deep. Install the action, using a headless screw, and GREASE THE SCREW WELL. Now, pack the hole around the screw with Acraglas, or Steel-Bed, from Brownells. Ensure that you use plenty of release agent, and mask the bottom of the stock well. Gently squeeze the stock together, and remove all of the excess.

Now comes the fun part.

You must wait about one and one-half to two hours to let the mixture kick over. Then remove the headless screw GENTLY. (You did grease it well, didn't you?) Immediately replace is with your well oiled action screw, and tighten LOOSELY.

If done right, you will have a pillar of Acraglas that you can tighten your screw onto, without fear of crushing the stock.

All of this was just a suggestion--I readily admit that a much more durable job can be done with aluminum or steel pillars by someone set up to do it properly.

But, I've always been the type to stick my hands into stuff, for better or worse.

(Still looking for the release agent, by the way...........

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Happiness is a 200 yard bughole.

The Ruger 77s always had two "bumps on the bottom of the action just to the rear of the magazine cutout. These always create a problem. The other potential problem is the center screw. Don't tighten it. I have always had better success floating the whole barrel when floating it at all. Regards, Bill.

Dutch,
I just finished do a ruger m77. just for my own education i went the whole 9 yards and made up pillars for all three screws. the two back screws are pretty straight forward in that they are like any other action going straight in. the fron pillar was the tricky part in that even after carefully measuring it and cutting it you still need to do a tral fit to make sure you have it right. this is where using son inletting black is handy. gently tap the pillar into place and set the action in the stock and just tighten the tang screw enough to hold things in place and using just enough pressure from you hands or however you want to apply the preasure seat the recoil lug and let it push the pillar back out as much as is needed. in my case i intentionally left the piece i used as a pillar about 1/16th of an inch too long. once this is done you can mark the pillar and gently remove it and what it did was to use a dremel tool with a cut off disc to cut small shallow bands around the material in about 5 or six places. then clean the piece of all grease , oil , dirt ,,you know the drill, and also clean the hole in the stock and run som corse sand paper rolled up through the hole to roughen it up. apply the epoxy/bedding compound to the pillar and insert it into the stock up to the mark you made for the proper depth(if it goe a bit further dont worry you can always touch it up with a dremel tool after things set up). let this cure for a day or so and redo the front part of the bedding after you trim any excess off of the pillar sticking out the bottom of the stock so that it is flush or just a couple of thousands above the wood. you may have to enlarge the hole for the screw to fit through without contacting the pillar, do this before you redo the front bedding of the recoil lug. then bed the area as normal and things should be ok from there. I had to go through this process about 4 timesbefore i was satisfied with the results as no-one around here has tried to do this with a ruger because of the angled recoil lug and the way the front screw has to go in. hope this helps you. e-mail me if you need me to better explain what i did.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Lots of good stuff to go over. For now, I can't seem to get the "black" to tell me anything new, so it looks like a "do-over". Sigh........ Dutch.

Don,
I assure you that the rubber bands can ,in fact, "warp" or perhaps I'll reword that to say they will "create uneven pressure"in the bedding, so I won't get nitpicked to death by superman....

The point is I don't want uneven pressure from anywhere...I use guide screws and push the barreled action in by hand firmly and let it settle on its own..

Right or wrong it works for me.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, instinct says you probably have it right on the $$$. I used the big, wide bands, as tight as I could get it (triple coverage). I would not doubt for a second they can bend the 77 action.

Here is what I think happened. I used tape to center the barrel in the barrel channel, and establish the depth, near the tip of the forearm. Then, I let the action settle on the area previously bedded at the rear bolt and the tang, and put the bands on the front and rear receiver rings. So, there was nothing supporting the action in the middle, and about 20 to 40 lbs bearing down. All that with a 2 ft span between supports. You bet that'll bend things! Like Homer says: "Doh!".

Thanks again, to all. Learned something again! Dutch.

Rubber bands can exert tremendious force. Forget that idea and just use the screws. Grease them real well first! : ) At this point I would hog out most of the glass and start again. Tape the rails and barrel from a couple of inches ahead of the receiver. Use that wide PVC pipe wrap tape. Use spotting black to be sure nothing is binding. Glass it with the tape on. It make a really neat job. Play with the "UP" pressure on the barrel with bits of cardboard. Ammo boxes and match books are great. When it shoots, duplicate what you did in glass.

Scot, I can assure you, the rubber band idea wasn't mine...... As in, don't believe everything you find on the internet! Dutch.

In my experience the best way to bed a rifle is to:

1) Bed only the tang and front of action. If the action is like a Ruger or Wby Mark V with front screw right at front of action, then about an inch or so under the barrel, but with none under barrel for M70 or Rem 700.

2) I like to position the free floating barreled action initially with tape around the barrel but with a very quick setting filler, like car body filler, just behind the tape. I then pull apart when set and reove tape.

3) Have things so barreled action just rests on car body filler at thre forend tip and also the tang.

4) Drop in barreled action with screws with out heads on them. I usually put a steel bar through the scope rings to balance the barreled action or sometimes just the scope itself.

I strongly belive there sghould be no screw pressure or rubber bands etc. and that the action should float between tang and front.

The problem with rubber bands etc. is that they can cause the barreled action to continue moving at the epoxy is curing.

Mike

Positioning the gun can be tricky and cause stresses that will come back and bite you...

I hand bed the action to start with so that it lays centered in the rifle stock, then I use a small piece of modling clay UNDER the barrel to locate the front of the barrel at the forend tip at 50% depth...the barrled action touches at two spots, the end of the tang and on the clay....At this point I glass the first two inches of barrel at the action, the recoil area back to and including the tang...I use the headless guide screws as Mike mentions, push it down and it will settle shortly and come to rest...When cured and removed I slightly drill out the screw holes and clean it up....

If I want the barrel channal bedded fully I do it at the same time...If I want it fully bedded and free floated I put two layers of paper tape from the front of the chamber to the end of the barrel...when the tape is removed your barrel is free floated and the stock is full lenth glassed...

Stresses in the stock are problem causes, bedded by hand or glassed, the result is the same, inaccuracy.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Mike, why do you feel that putting a permanent bridge at the fore-end tip is better than using tape to space barrel depth? I have trouble seeing the difference in the end result. Dutch.

P.S. Ray, I really like your way of bedding/floating the barrel. A couple of layers of tape would be a very quick way to bed exactly as far as you want to, and float the rest of the way.

[This message has been edited by Dutch (edited 06-22-2001).]

I've had good results with the Rugers by putting the barreled action in a fixture (hole in the wall) and then "floating" the stock to the action. The angled front screw seems to work against just setting the action in the stock and letting it settle into place. I believe things needs to be seated with light-moderate tension on the screws. The tang on the tang safety models is pretty wimpy. I like to bed the entire action rails on those. With a pillar installed the middle screw can do the work of the rear screw. I've also run into some Rugers where the screw head contact surfaces on the trigger guard and floor plate were not "square". When tightened down, the screws were tweaked into a slight angle.

Dutch,

I use a quick setting filler to position the barrel becuase I have found with tape that you can get some creep as the epoxy cures. Often the tape is positioning the barrel by binding on the sides of the stock and not just sitting on the bottom of the forend channel.

Also it is much easier if you do a few rifles, especially if the beddding is done sometime after you have set up the stock for bedding.

Actually, the absolute best bedding job is to do the action with no barrel on, but that is not real practical with normal sporting barrel contour stocks.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 06-24-2001).]

Some good advise from Mike on the tape binding and creating stresses, also on glassing just the action, then the first two inches or barrel or the whole barrel channel seperately by barrel removal method...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Thanks again, all. Seems I have solved the vertical stringing in this latest attempt -- now it throws the shots in two distinct groups, 8 and 2 o'clock, 5 or so inches apart. LOL! Maybe I wasn't cut out for this gunsmithing business, after all. I claim to have a sense of humor, but this rifle is testing it, by Jove!

Thanks again for all the help. I've printed it out, and am going to study some on it. After all, NEVER give up. . Dutch.

Hi again Dutch!

Have you checked the contact on the locking lugs? This "two group behaviour" could well be a result of bad contact in the locking area.

Blacken the lugs with a match or a candle. The put the bolt in the action and close it with pressure FORWARD on the handle. Then jerk the bolt in the closed position a few times, but only a few degrees! Then apply forward pressure again and open the bolt. This will tell you how the lugs contact the reciver. If you make a full turn on the bolt a small high spot can give the impression that you have a pretty good locking area.

Hope you understand this strange instuctions that I typed in a forgein language, at least it is for me

Stefan.

your problem is not in the lug contact area or it would have been there from the start..

Now, your rifle is shifting in the stock from shot to shot..You must locate that movement or stress. Try using shims under the the action on the recoil lug or tang or both...get it shooting and then bed accordingly...

Better solution: Send the gun to Jim Brockman and tell him not to send it back until it shoots...Gooding, Id. 208-934-5050

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, ouch, you know how to hurt a guy..... . Good suggestion, though. I need to run to the lab in Hagerman this week anyway, so I might just drop it off. Heard a lot of good things about Brockman. Did he ever recover from the Blackstar thing?

Still, that's kinda like giving up isn't it? Dutch.

Dutch,
My ruger was doing the same thing ,, shooting 2 groups only about 3 inches apart.
that is why i went through the pillar bedding exercise as well as bedding the entire action. Shot the rifle last saturday and was well pleased with the results as I was able to get a group under .75 at 100yds with most under an inch. sounds as though Ray is right about the movement. Hope you get it figured out, it is a pain i know.
Dave

Dutch, this is a shot in the dark but I had a rifle (ruger 77) that started shooting two groups like yours. Turned out to be the scope ( Leupold, who'd have guessed) Any way, is it possible that the scope went south on you while you were doing all this bedding work? Good luck.

Migra, absolutely. I actually changed scopes after the last bedding job. I robbed the scope off the Ruger for the Tikka. The wife drew an antelope tag and a cow elk, so I had to get a rig going, and it looked like a Tikka without problems (280) was a better bet than a Ruger with problems in 270. Thanks for the suggestion, but it will have to be on the back burner for a while. My available tinkering time is going to be limited due to scouting duties the rest of the summer. Dutch.

Stay with it. Eventually You'll eliminate all the varibles.