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| Mauser 98 vs. Win. 70? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
I like the Mauser hands down with the pre 64 Winchester in second place, both are fine actions.... The Mauser converted properly will be much more expensive than the pre 64 M-70 win, but it is nicer IMHO.... You have to make your decision on that basis, I would suspect... ------------------ | |||
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| <jsirm> |
Hello, thanks for your reply Ray. I suppose I should educate myself more about mauser conversions before I take the plunge. What are some sources of information on the topic and who does good work on mausers? This will not be a fancy rifle, it will likely be mated with a synthetic stock, a stainless barrel chambered in 9.3x62mm and teflon coated, with iron sights and a 2.5x scope. Thanks for the information Ian | ||
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| <Don Martin29> |
The path of least resistance is the M-70. Having a target shooting background I never see Mausers used with success. The Mausers loooooog slooooooooow striker fall is a major reason. Then you need a special trigger, bolt handle and don't forget to check the hardness. If it's soft it won't stay in headspace if shot hard. I have had Mausers and still do have an FN. I can imagine right now trying to push the aim in towards the center and waiting for the primer to fire. I looked at a custom .338 for sale in a shop. It was made and signed by a smith in Georgia and on a Oberdorff. It was about a $1000 less than two Dakotas for sale there. I would not bother to put money into a Mauser when you can get a old M-70 or a Dakota made up new! | ||
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| one of us |
For a hunting rifle I like the Mauser. For a target rifle I like the M70 though the Remington may be better for this purpose. For a real target rifle one of the custom actions is probably the way to go. Regards, Bill. | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
Well I guess as an European I have to fight back. I like the MAUSER action best and in my opinion it's better than the american made "copy" called winchester model 64/70 which some people seems to to love soo much. Compare an good commercial mauser to a winchester and you will see. Winchester are not bad actions and I prefer them instead of the remington 700. Not to mention the terrible ruger or savage actions. Cheers | ||
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| <RickMD> |
You can't go wrong with either one. I love the smoothness of the pre'64 but, according to P.O. Ackley, the '98 is stronger. ------------------ | ||
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| <allen day> |
Nostalgia be flipped! I prefer the Model 70 to anything else, and the Mauser 98 comes in second with me. The Model 70 is made of far superior steels, and the heat treating is much more sophisticated and in keeping with 21st century cartidge pressure levels. The Model 70's receiver is also much stiffer, and provides a much better fundamental platform for accuracy. This does not take into account the superior safety and trigger mechanisms, plus the much faster lock time. Everything that would normally be reworked or replaced on a Mauser 98 is already in place with the Model 70, so why screw around with some old relic that was designed around low-pressure cartridges and problematic ammunition in the first place? The Model 70 provides the best of all worlds, so why go with anything else? AD | ||
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one of us |
I would go with the Mauser M98. | |||
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| One of Us |
My choice would be M70 for much the same reasons that Allen day said. A model 70 reciever is designed with bedding in mind. Large tang, heavy mid section and perfectly placed recoil lug and front screw. I would only pick Mauser I think if I was having expensive custom rifles made in calibers like 7 X 57 or 9.3 X 62. Also if I wanted a Jeffrey or Holland look alike and would then have the Mauser with the thumb cut. The other reason would be, and I am doing this, is the CZ if the case is Rigby based. But if I had the money to spend I would use Dakota actions for the Rigby case since the Dakota is essentially a bigger version of the M70 receiver. One advantage of the Mauser and this may not apply in America, is that it does allow you to kick off a project for far less money than starting with a Model 70. In fact I know that in Australia that aspect alone is reponsible for the popularity of Mausers for custom guns Mike | |||
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| one of us |
hey, i would favorite the Mauser K/M 98 action, although the Win70 (pre64) is a good action too. The Mauser 98 action has the advantage that the gasshield is better designed as at the Win 70 action. If u are looking for a Mauser action ...take your time and look for a pre War action, best actions here are from DWM manufactured in Berlin in 1908 and 1909, but even the chilen, Argentino or Peru Actions are fine. In the later production line ,during the War, the material they used to build there actions, are not as good as in the pre war time. I do have a Mauser 98 action, maybe that�s why i�m favourising this type of action I�m not quite sure, but overhere you have the opportunity to find a good action if u get yourself an old K98, that is prepared for Salut. cheers ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Don, I can't count the numbers of Mauser's I've seen that can group under 1/2" at 100yds, I've even seen some that will shoot 1/2" at 300yds. So a few milleseconds on lock time doesn't make any difference unless you are shooting benchrest, for anything else the M98 is superior to all other actions. The Rem and M70 won't win any benchrest matches either! | |||
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one of us |
I hope we don't get into what amounts to a religious war here, but I think you can build a good rifle using a current production Winchester M70 Classic style action just as you can with a current production commercial Mauser M98 style action. Cost to do so will vary widely with the choice of parts. It just so happens that the June, 2002 issue of American Rifleman has a Dope Bag article on the Brno 98 Rifle (pp 58-60). The rifle is imported into the US by EAA Corporation (www.eaacorp.com), and is built by Zbrojovka Brno, Czech Republic (www.zbrojovka.com). The rifle sells for US$339. It appears to be an exact duplicate of the M98, complete with thumb slot and stripper clip guide. It does not have iron sights, and is tapped for a scope mount. The bolt handle is swept back. The safety is a Mauser wing style, which means the scope must be in high rings The stock is a synthetic. The rifle tested was a .30-'06, and the average accuracy for 5-shot groups at 100 yards was 2.66". Comments included a heavy trigger pull and stiff safety operation. Also Mitchell's Mausers has an ad for original M98K rifles (www.mitchellsales.com) for $395.  The cost to convert a military action to today's commercial standards will be considerable, and you might also have to re-heat treat the action as well. Now if the Montana Rifleman will just get hot and ship the two actions I have ordered from them, I will be happy. http://www.montanarifleman.com/model1999.html jim dodd | |||
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| one of us |
The gun in above pic is not an Original Mauser. It has a full handguard ( correct word? ), the Mauser 98K has a short one. I suspect it to be the Yugo 48, which is available in new condition. The VZ 24 would have a straight bolt handle. Hermann | |||
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| one of us |
Well, lets see if I can stir the pot a mite- It seems to me that the nuts and bolts of the whole argument is that a winchester m-70 is a much modified variant of the m-98, and is what most correctly modified 98's end up looking like when they are done. Triggers are replaced, m-70 safetys added, lock time shortened, internals all smoothed up, etc etc. But the point of a custom rifle is "custom" is it not? If all you are looking to build is a glass stocked hunting rifle, it would seem that it would be simpler to find a pre or post 64 (CRF-or controlled round feed) and screw on a barrel and bed it up and Viola!!- a finished rifle. But the joy of building a custom rifle is doing all the little do-dads that you CAN do to a good mauser. Picking the trigger, (single set, double set, or good single stage) a good safety (wing type, model 70 style in 2 or three position, or a safety on a trigger), infinate variety of floorplate and trigger bow work, not to mention surface grinding, lapping, facing, polishing raceways, drilling and tapping, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that all the things that so many guys cuss about having to do to a mauser is the thing that many of us find the most enjoyable. And as to which is most preferable, I frankly don't think their is a whit of difference between a well tuned 98 and a good 70. Oh, and by the way- someone had mentioned earlier that a 98 is not a target rifle, long lock time, etc. Thats not really relevant, in my way of thinking. Since when is that really a concern, when any decent action/barrel/stock combination can shoot better that 95% of us can hold? And as to the "modern steels' discussion, a mauser gets its strength, as does a 70, by its design, not its materials. You stick a gross overload in either and you run a chance of getting hurt. Exception to this is that some mausers are of lesser quality than others, and here is where it pays to do your homework before you buy. It really boils down to what you want to do- BUILD a gun, or put some parts together? Either is fine. Neither is "better" than the other. | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
The lock time of a rifle or pistol is very important to hitting what you are aiming at. It makes a big difference in calling the shot. Someone here maybe GSF1200 mentions groups at long range from Mausers. That is irrelevant and not at all what I mean. It's getting the rifle to fire when you want it to and slow lock times make it far harder. I am positive of this. I can feel it now as I wait for the Mauser striker to hit. They hit so hard finally that they shake the rifle. No thanks. | ||
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| one of us |
quote:Once again Mr Atkinson hits the nail squarely on the head!! | |||
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| one of us |
The pre-war M70s are very nice actions. The early post war nearly as nice. The new CRF M70s are not the same and have some drawbacks. The receiver not having the feed rails milled as a part of the receiver is one. The two piece bolt with a silver solder joint right in the middle of the cocking cam is another. To me the only major improvement over the 98 was the elimination of the slotted lug. Even that change was accompanied by the different bolt stop which was not an improvement. Quicker locktime notwithstanding, the striker assembly was no improvement either. I have some pre-64s and like them but for a serious rugged hunting rifle I like the Mauser better. | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
I think that the post 64 M-70's like the Remington 720-1-2 & 700's have a 3 piece bolt! And its copper brazed also just behind the locking lugs. The pieces are assembled and sent out to a heat treating company to be heated to brazing temperature. Then ground. | ||
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| <Don Martin29> |
I notice that the majority of gunsmiths here prefer the M98 and the people who pay for the rifles prefer M-70's! Why is that? Could it be money? | ||
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| One of Us |
Don Martin29, As I said in a previous post the Mauser 98 lets a shooter get a project going for less $$$ than Model 70. That could be to the gunsmiths advantage. It is certainly the case in Australia. This becomes especially true when it is M98 Vs Pre 64. Having said that, I think the points Bill Leeper made are very valid. For example, do you want your custom rifle to have a glued on bolt handle? although at least M70 has it on a spline. Would you like a real slick action like only a case hardened bolt can give. I still remember the M17 actions so clearly. For me, I would take the M70 bedding configuration and the bolt not waving all over the place. But then again if you wanted a 375 in a Holland and Holland look alike, you would need a Mauser and with the thumb cut. If you were to make a matched pair in 300 H&H and 375 H&H, which actions would you use. What about a macthed set of 7 X 57 and 9.3 X 62 or 404 Jeffrey and 500 Jeffrey. Mike | |||
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| <allen day> |
Anyone who has doubts about the mechanical integrity of the post-64 Model 70 bolt handle should read the chapter on the post-64 Model 70 in Stuart Otteson's book, "The Bolt Action". A careful study of that well-considered, well-educated, professional treatise will lay any of these ill-founded concerns to rest in a hurry. This bolt handle arrangement is more than strong enough for anyone's purpose, and it's vastly different and far, far stronger than the Remington 700 system. There is no comparison between the two, and quite actually the current Model 70 bolt handle offers some distinct advantages over the pre-64 system. Most of the gunsmiths I've known who are big Mauser fans are more concerned about cosmetic gratification and blessed "tradition" than anything else. The trained, professional, full-time gunsmiths I know who have hunted the most prefer the Model 70 by a wide margin over the Mauser 98. So do the clients - the Model 70 is taken to Africa by something like a three-to-one ratio over any other make of factory rifle, and it's widely used by professional hunters as well. AD | ||
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one of us |
quote:How is this any different from you and your views on the M70? Mike375 If I was going to build a 300H&H, and a 375H&H it would choose a CZ 550 Action and have Jack Belk install a custom safety on it. These are my opinions. Thats all. [ 05-29-2002, 00:54: Message edited by: alvinmack5 ] | |||
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| <allen day> |
That's a fair question. My comment is based on a general trend that I've noticed amoung gunbuilders over the last twenty years; not any sort of hard and fast rule. I know a number of custom gunmakers who specialize in high-performance hunting rifles who will certainly build a rifle on a good Mauser 98 action at the client's request. They'll just go the extra mile to make sure the action's properly set up and re-worked for real use - not for just looking pretty in a cabinet. So how's the Model 70 different? Re-read my previous comments about steels, proper heat -treating to handle modern hunting cartridges, etc. Do I like Mauser 98 actions, and would I hunt with a rifle based on that action? Yes, I think they're great, I've owned them, and I've hunted with them. I'll likely hunt with them again in the future. My real rub is that I've seen some that were not properly re-worked, and some that developed locking lug set-back because they should have been re-heat treated and weren't. In every case, the failings were caused by the gunmaker not taking things far enough in their alteration. AD | ||
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| one of us |
quote:Don, the Mauser was designed to go bang every time, some of these new actions with their tiny little firing pins, will missfire when they get cold, or damp. No thanks, I will keep my M98, goes bang every time, doesn't choke on a little sand, dust, mud, or water. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Don, No flame intended, but isn't this contrary to the fundementals of marksmanship? - John | |||
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| one of us |
I do not think the M70 has a three piece bolt like the Rem 700 but two piece only. Allen, The theoretical strength of the splined silver solder joint is all well and good but there is some difference between theory and real life. In real life the spline doesn't fit very well and in fact appears to be more of a straight knurl on the bolt body. In real life the silver solder joint isn't always that good either. In real life the temperature required to melt the silver solder is high enough that the cocking cam and the primary extraction cam are too soft and can have a tendency to gall. The Winchester is a better system than the 700 but both fail on occasion. While the alloy used in the new M70s may offer some improvement over the pre-64s I can't imagine what kind of advantage the new bolt handle attachment would offer. I think the BRNO ZKKs may have represented the ultimate evolution of the Mauser except for a couple of draw backs. The first was the use of the M70 bolt stop. The second was the typical European refusal to use an American trigger system like the M70. The BRNO trigger system was complex and didn't really work that well. The safety that worked backwards didn't really bother me but the trigger sucked! The new 550s are marginally better. The trigger works better but is still too complex and takes up more room than it should. | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
Beezlebubba, The idea is to know when the primer will fire and have the aim moving towards the center. This is for position shooting and in particular offhand. | ||
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| one of us |
Thanks Don. My only competetive experience is with pistol shooting. Sounds out of my league as far as rifle goes. - John | |||
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| one of us |
Sorry, double post. [ 05-29-2002, 05:19: Message edited by: Beelzebubba ] | |||
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| One of Us |
Allen, My comment on the M70 "glued on" bolt handle was not linking it to Rem 700 system. We can all read the books on bolt actions  But soldered and splined is el cheapo. I think even a Howa has a one one piece bolt. While I am not a Mauser man, I can see why people will go for them over a current M70. Mike | |||
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| one of us |
Don, I never had any trouble winning the deer hunter competion at my gun club every year with my M98. I always beat the Rem's and all the others, lot's of moving targets, and off hand shooting was involved. | |||
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one of us |
quote:Don Martin, it�s obvious that experience of time and sensibility for striker motion differ. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} However, skilled marksmen can put 10 shot in the bulls eye @100yds with the old Swede M94, which has 1 inch striker travel. Striker travel doesn�t matter that much for shot at game in the field - and not much at the range. Personally, I have no time to wait between trigger pulling and shot. The mauser being old doesn�t mean that it is a flint-lock... ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Best regards, Fritz | |||
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one of us |
For what it's worth,,I bought two turk.mausers,$39.00 ea. I picked up a new rem. 700 take-off barrel[.308],$50.00. The guy that does barrel rechambering for me charged $125.00 to put on and headspace. He got lucky on the thread timing and the original iron sight holes came up on top. I put the iron sights back on. Had a nice soft butt pad sitting on the bench so I fit it to the stock,and lopped off maby 12" of the front. I had to open up the barrel channel a good bit.I then bedded it with jb weld.It's not the prettiest thing,but shoots under 2" @ 100yds. and it's pretty light. | |||
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Moderator |
it's a pretty easy field to survey. I like the mauser, BUT To bring a mauser to just the "fit, finish, and frills" of a model 70 will cost you an arm and a leg. And, if you want something longer than a 300 winmag, WHEW... katy bar the door. If you are building your first gun, start with either a model 70 classic, or, even more fun, a cz 550. Either have tons of parts available, made with modern steels, and, dadgumit, can be had from the factory to feed great big ole rounds. It'll be your choice, and don't go cheap. But, remember, it's about 250 bucks just to have someone put a model 70 type trigger on a mauser. jeffe | |||
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