When building a custom rifle on a 1909 Argentine action, using SMP 404 Jeffery bottom metal.

Can the loading port be opened up/lengthened so a 404 Jeffery cartridge can be loaded straight down into the magazine, without needing to tip the rear of the case in first?

Allen

Hopefully Tom won't mind this photo from his book. Photo by Ron Dehn of a David Miller big bore built on a 1909 Argentine Action showing how he opens the loading port.

If I remember correctly, Mr. Wiebe suggests that if you do this you need to make a couple of bevels for the extractor slot so it doesn't get hung up when the action is cycled.

Mr Kelowsky....don't open that can of worms again..HAR!


Jim Wisner used to make a longer extractor to take 100% care of this potential problem..don't know if they are still available...Jim??

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Mr Kelowsky....don't open that can of worms again..HAR!


Jim Wisner used to make a longer extractor to take 100% care of this potential problem..don't know if they are still available...Jim??

ERA makes a long extractor.

wow, not to take away from the other work and topic, but that is the prettiest crossbolt I have ever seen!

Now this is not opening it to magnum length correct? not for instance opening it to 416 rigby, which I know is so controversial and apparently taboo (and i'll save everybody the trouble of mentioning selby had one he shot for years).

Red

You know...I think that was done by the late Lynton Mc Kenzie..Damn hard to beat his artistry...He is missed by all that appreciate his tree top level of work.

That crossbolt was most likely done in house.

Rear action screw. I think it's called attention to detail.

If you can get Tom Turpin's book "Mastery of Wood & Metal-David Miller Co." there about 135 pg of step by step photos of Miller and Crum building what they call the Classic Model.
They show the engraving of the crossbolt being done in house by Curt Crum. That pattern seems to be their trademark , its on every Classic.
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by McCray:
Rear action screw. I think it's called attention to detail.

... and the bolt release screw! (feels like a game of "find the cool stuff")

Ok I will play... I spy the bolt stop tab and the reshaped extractor pretty cool.

What's with all the lotus flowers? I know Tucson pretty well. Never struck me as a zen central type of town.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
You know...I think that was done by the late Lynton Mc Kenzie..Damn hard to beat his artistry...He is missed by all that appreciate his tree top level of work.

A photo of another 1909 done by David Miller. This one with Lynton McKenzie engraving.

quote:

Originally posted by weaveman:
Ok I will play... I spy the bolt stop tab and the reshaped extractor pretty cool.

Already noted the nice checkering, but completely missed the extractor. Pretty cool, polished at the front and bead blasted at the rear I'm guessing? Not my cup of tea, but a neat custom touch. The gap between back of extractor and rear bridge eats at me though...

Why wouldn't the thumb slot be cut out of the stock on an open site DG rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Why wouldn't the thumb slot be cut out of the stock on an open site DG rifle?

Guess it is because you cant use a loadingclip anymort, and therefor have no use for the thumbcut.
Might be against the ideas of the traditionalists, but in some opinions looks "cleaner"

BTW those 2 pictures showed magnificant works, with extremely atention to details.

Might even get a modern rifleentutiast want to have a peace of art based on a m98

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
BTW those 2 pictures showed magnificant works, with extremely atention to details.

Might even get a modern rifleentutiast want to have a peace of art based on a m98

Gee Jargen, and I thought you were going to say that you've built 30,000 of these, cranking one out every 45 minutes in between your 15 second bolt forgings and 20 minute checkering jobs!

quote:

Originally posted by McCray:
Rear action screw. I think it's called attention to detail.

I caught that too, awesome.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Why wouldn't the thumb slot be cut out of the stock on an open site DG rifle?

Most likely the exact opposite reason that he left the extractor short of the bridge.

And contrary to what jørgen might say, the thumb slot does make recharging the mag easier.

If your coordination prevents you from top loading cartridges through the loading port with your strong hand I'd maybe consider a different maker.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
If your coordination prevents you from top loading cartridges through the loading port with your strong hand I'd maybe consider a different maker.

Easy there Mr. Nelson, I never said that anyone "couldn't" load cartridges one handed, only that having the thumb slot there can make it easier.

IIRC Finn Aagaard related a tale of one of his fellow PHs(Nicky Blunt?) cutting a thumb slot into a M70 458 because he missed the ease that a Mauser could be recharged while keeping your eyes free to watch what every you are shooting at.

BTW Finn said the lack of a guide rib on the mod. 70 bolt made this inadvisable.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
If your coordination prevents you from top loading cartridges through the loading port with your strong hand I'd maybe consider a different maker.

Easy there Mr. Nelson, I never said that anyone "couldn't" load cartridges one handed, only that having the thumb slot there can make it easier.

IIRC Finn Aagaard related a tale of one of his fellow PHs(Nicky Blunt?) cutting a thumb slot into a M70 458 because he missed the ease that a Mauser could be recharged while keeping your eyes free to watch what every you are shooting at.

BTW Finn said the lack of a guide rib on the mod. 70 bolt made this inadvisable.

I'm just saying.

I built a 460 on a Granite Arms action last year for a PH in TZ...He insisted on creating a thumb slot just for the reasons mentioned.

The system 98 (original) was pretty darn well thought out...all "improvements" have really been a step backward....OK..OK..MOST inmprovements..

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Why wouldn't the thumb slot be cut out of the stock on an open site DG rifle?

James: Noticed that too......puzzling

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Why wouldn't the thumb slot be cut out of the stock on an open site DG rifle?

James: Noticed that too......puzzling

Yeah, almost like it wasn't really built to be used.

Question, Notice the picture below. Notice how the rear of the extractor is sitting outside of the action. Could this cause any trouble during extraction of a "sticky" case with it only held in place with catch ring and slot guide on the bolt?

It just looks like if you had to really pull back on the bolt handle the back of the extractor could possibly bind of even stop if it hit the action on it's way to cycle a new round.

Am I wrong here?

Thanks,
Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Question, Notice the picture below. Notice how the rear of the extractor is sitting outside of the action. Could this cause any trouble during extraction of a "sticky" case with it only held in place with catch ring and slot guide on the bolt?

It just looks like if you had to really pull back on the bolt handle the back of the extractor could possibly bind of even stop if it hit the action on it's way to cycle a new round.

Am I wrong here?

Thanks,
Terry

No, you are not wrong. We hashed this out a couple of weeks ago.

To summarize: All agreed that Miller must have beveled the top of the raceway at the forward edge of the rear bridge.

The detractors said they still could not understand why Miller did not use a long extractor because it would be: 1) correct, 2) safer, and 3) would not look like chit.

The supporters said the front of the extractor would be in the raceway of the receiver ring, and would therefore be held in place, negating the need for a long extractor that would be captured in the rear bridge. They maintained that the only reason to go with an extended extractor was looks.

My question to then is: How many features did Paul Mauser incorporate into the M98 solely for "looks"?

For an $40k++ rifle, I be prepared to pay a few more measley coin for an proper length extractor....

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
For an $40k++ rifle, I be prepared to pay a few more measley coin for an proper length extractor....

Great point Trax. At the bargain basement price of $40K you can't really expect the rifle to be field ready......

Very rarely, if ever, do you see a used Miller Custom mauser for sale.

So, the owners of these Rifles must like them.

I have a feeling that few, if any, are ever returned for any reason whatsoever.

Moreover, since these are made to order, I am sure that the people ordering them could have easily specified a longer extractor but did not.


If you are fortunate to be able to own one of Miller's custom Mauser rifles and you don't like the short extractor buy a long one and install it.

22WRF

Do you think Miller sells many? And of those sold, do you think many see hard use?

Do you believe these rifles are made to be tools or art?

I would not be surprised that when the bolt is opened that the tail end of the extractor is going to slip just under the rear bridge when to bolt hits the top of the extraction cam angle, all this taking place before the bolt can be pulled straight back. I would also imagine that there is a bevel to funnel the extractor tail under the rear bridge and that David and Curt selected and fit an extractor that had no end play at all. I recently did the same on 2 HARTMANN & WEISS Magnum 98'S that were each set up for the 505. There was no way around this if you wanted to load the rifle rapidly and have the rounds eject properly even with a bullet nose radius cut into the rear of the front ring. The open port was handy as anticipated as the owner missed the brain on an Ele in Bots this last August and got into a running gun battle before it was all over, no time for carefully slipping the loaded rounds back into the overhanging rear bridge and into the magazine. Just dump and run.

If you look on line there was for a while a H&W 505 that was at Westley Richards for sale and modified the same way. Look at the last Gibbs Jerry Fisher did and he elected to do the same thing to his ejection port. While I would agree it might be best to have the extractor always buried in the rear bridge you sometimes do not have the option. When that Miller 458 was made perhaps they did not have access to a longer extractor ? However I would bet you a large stack of dollar bills that the rifle in question was shot plenty before in left the shop and nothing was left "hanging in the wind" and I'd win that bet.

When I was at the SCI convention in February I had the opportunity to speak to Curt Crum at the David Miller booth for a few minutes after I finished admiring the rifles they had on display.

The conversation started becasue I told him I was disappointed that they didn't have the Elephant Rifle on display and he said that it was in private ownership.

Anyway, he also said they do not build many mauser actioned rifles anymore, prefering instead to use Model 70 classic actions.

I inquired whether folks hunted their rifles and Mr. Crum told me that they expect them to be hunted and they are built for hunting.

I believe that they are functional art.

I know that Jim Carmichal has a .338 Miller Rifle on a 1909 Action that he has hunted all over the world.

If I had one I would certainly hunt it, just like I would drive a Mercedez Benz if I owned one, or wear a Rolex watch (if I still owned the one I had).

I am sure there are a few folks here on AR that own them and hunt them.

I know they are top of the line, but they are too gaudy for me. I know some people don't like my taste either and that is the reason for customs.
Butch

22WRF
The owner of the SCI #1 458 also owns another 458 Win Mag Miller Classic that he has used quite a bit for Ele's, Buffalo etc. Made on a 98 the same way and same construction specs as the SCI #1. To my knowledge he has never had one issue with that rifle or any other rifle Miller has made. He also owns a 98 I made him that has been on many Safari's as his light rifle when paired with that Miller 458. People do grouse a lot about The David Miller Company but incompetent they are not.

Mr. Echols

What caliber is the rifle you made for the hunter that owns the two Miller Rifles.

If you feel like it, please tell us a little bit about that rifle.

This Classic was made as a Light Sporter and chambered for 30/06. Made on a 1935 Chilean and has provided the owner with a lot of memories.

you wouldn't have happened to have saved a photo of it, would you have?

I have some professional pics done in both B&W and Color for my photo album but nothing scanned. The Rifle made the cover of Rifle Magazine, # 171 May of 1997. Perhaps you can find a copy of that issue. I have a couple dead Leopard pics that the owner sent as well but nothing MAC ready, I'm sorry.

And a gorgeous rifle it is. I note that a few folks above didn't like the coverup of the thumb slot on the Miller Rifles. It appears from this photo that you use the same method. NICE!