I agree with Allan Day on the issue of custom rifles. I have three makers that I keep busy working on various projects. Dakota is a semi-custom and you never are going to get a great gun from them. The wood they use is obcenely over rated and their fit/function/accuracy have issues. I have ordered two rifles for customers and both needed serious adjustments. For this price of rifle they better be perfect out of the box.

Model 70 and Model 70-based custom rifles have served me better than well, and I don't care to use anything else, except for a good Mauser '98 for specific projects. Some of the new Mauser actions (true to original design) are truly wonderful, and I'd love to have a .416 Rigby built on one of these.......

I'm hoping to get a custom 338-06 sometime in the next year or too and am just starting to look into the subject. From what I've read so far the M98 or a copy sounds like a leading candidate for the action.

For the M98 style actions, can you elaborate a bit on which of the new actions are true to the original design and ball park cost?

Also any suggestion barrel length for this round? I'd be using this mostly for elk hunting in the Rockies.

Thanks

Joe

Here is an excerpt from an article in Rifle magazine [sorry, date unknown, but relatively recent I believe].

"The breeching system we use is very similar to the Mauser," says Allen. "The bolt face is squared off like the Mauser and we've pulled the barrel back further into the receiver... the bolt actually fits into the rear portion of the barrel, forming an inner ring around the bolt."

The Dakota action, like the M70, has a vent hole in the right side of the receiver ring. The bolt stop is a precise, finely fitted part that blocks the left raceway to deflect gases and brass particles away from the shooter. Other changes include a redesigned firing-pin, beefier safety, and what Dakota calls "reverse round feeding." This means that the first round in the magazine is held by the left feed rail instead of the right. The advantage is that it is easier and faster if the shooter ever has to load a round in a hurry.

The quality of materials and workmanship is equally important. Actions can be made in various ways, all of which produce good actions if the work is done well. Dakota Arms receivers are machined from high-grade, heat-treated steel. The advantage of this method is that there is no concern about warping, which can happen if the steel is machined and then hardened. Parts can be machined to extremely close tolerances. The disadvantage to this is that it is much more time-consuming and costly to machine steel after it has been heat-treated. As Don Allen says, "We start with a 10-pound block of steel and we end up with a 2pound receiver and 8 pounds of steel shavings on the floor."

Great pains are taken during manufacture to keep everything straight and concentric; bolts are matched to receivers and receiver threads are cut so that the barrel is properly centered and aligned. Currently there are a number of gunsmiths who cater to accuracy enthusiasts by specializing in "blueprinting" actions. They take standard actions of various makes, square and true them, fit barrels square to the action, and lap the locking lugs to bear evenly. Dakota Arms rifles are made with all these features right from the beginning and have always featured high-grade barrels, which are currently supplied by Lothar Walther.

Made To Order

The Dakota 76 action is made in four lengths and in either right- or left-handed versions at no extra cost. It is possible to purchase actions, barreled actions or complete rifles. The Classic Grade Model 76 is handsomely stocked in a good grade of English walnut, hand checkered and complete with sling swivel studs and recoil pad. It's an attractive, reliable and distinctive rifle. The majority of Dakota rifles are made to order, with additional features selected from a long list of options. These include upgraded wood, fancier checkering patterns, skeleton grip caps and butt-plates, special stock and barrel lengths, sight options such as quarter ribs and banded/hooded front sights. Many customers fly in from around the country or around the world to discuss options and to select a stock blank from the extensive supply on hand.

Touring the Dakota facility is a fascinating experience. The melding of technology and tradition can be disconcerting. At one point you can watch the most modern, computer numeric controlled machine tool at work, which fabricates components to precise tolerances. Step around a corner and its as though you've stepped back in time back to the world of hand craftsmanship of a century ago. Here, a worker - more accurately, an artist - is unhurriedly hand fitting and assembling components to make an action.

__________________________

Now, with all due respect to Allen Day, he is simply talking nonsense. By virtually every objective measure, the Dakota 76 action is superior to the Win pre-64 model 70. If one is predisposed to do so, one can complain about almost any aspect of any rifle on some idiosyncratic ground. And that appears to be what Mr. Day is doing. Who knows the true animus of his complaint, but it cannot reasonably be the quality, fit, function. materials or design of the Dakota rifle.

Finally, if one simply must have full custom, you can always buy the superior Dakota action [at least the 97] and have your custom 'smith begin with that excellent foundation. You can also send them your wood [if you think Dakota's wood is over-graded for the price].

I think if you'll put a Dakota in your hands, you will have an aching desire to purchase it. Take Mr. Day with a large bag of Morton salt.


Jordan

Hehehe- It almost sounds like Swamp is now calling himself
Jordan

Jordan, I'm sure you've hunted far more than I have, have owned more rifles of all types, and have far greater experience with custom rifles than I'll ever have. It also sounds like you're pretty good handing out cheap shots, running your mouth, and quoting ad copy. I used to be able to quote ad copy, ballistic charts, and gunwriter's written opinions myself, and from at least as far back as when I was a REAL rifle expert at age sixteen......

It's funny, but I don't know of a single top custom riflemaker who, by preference, employs the Dakota action as the cornerstone of their custom rifles. Most prefer to work with Model 70s or Mausers, and of course Remington 700s and their ilk. Now since your such a bright boy, maybe you can tell us why.

Shane, very same MO and the famous Cut "n" Paste

All I can add is that Swampie gives the Dakota a huge endorsement and that alone would make me question them.

I also notice that Saeed has a couple of them in 375/404 and his rifles look like they have the drop magazine but a standard depth stock. That makes me think that Saeed sees the actions as being quite ordinary.

On the other hand while it is true that the M98 and M70 form the foundation for most expensive custom rifles they are also cheap to start with and readily available. The M98 in particular allows a project to be kick started without much outlay.

However, it would be interesting to see the split between Dakota and the newer Magnum Mauser actions being used on the very expensive custom rifles in calibres like 416 Rigby as that for all practical purposes eliminates the M98 and M70. My guess is that the rifles based on Dakotas would be very thin on the ground.

Mike

Maybe off topic, but I would be willing to purchase one of you H&H actions if for sale.

Allen,
I just ignore 'new members' who won't post a real e-mail address in their profile. Most of them have turned out to be ToddE or some other asshole.

George

Savage,

If what you were saying was right (about choosing an action needing lots of work) then many custom gunsmiths would support the idea that many shooters have with regard to big bores and that is to use the M17 but they don't want do the M17.

Mike

Yup, I would like to sell one of them, as I found good deals on MORE magnum 70s, shortly after I bought them. I now have a minty .375H&H, one of three I have owned and four .338s. That plus my Dakota in .338 and maybe a custom .375 on one of these should do it. Please post an E-Mail or phone number, if you want one.



I have found the comments on the Dakota to be quite interesting. I bought mine from Kesselring's Gun Shop in Alger, Wa. in early 93 and the rifles they sell have wood on them that they supplied to Dakota, far superior to anything I have seen from Dakota themselves.



My wood is about exhibition grade, quarter sawn English with very even grain throughout. It holds zero well in this "rainjungle" and has done well on a few tough hunting trips. My initial impression was that the fitting of certain small parts could have been better, but, I have seen the same thing from some very famous custom 'smiths, both U.S. and Canadian.



I got a screaming deal on this rifle as the store had it in stock for quite some time and, over-all, I like it, especially the balance and handling. The stock Mod. 76 stock pattern works for me, quite well, so I think it a pretty decent rifle. The new ones are much too pricey, but,there is not much available on the market to compare with. The Win. "Custom Shop" rifles I have examined are not anywhere close to the Dakotas I have seen.



I would prefer to have all of mine rifles custom made, but, I cannot afford it. I would also love to have such things as a D'Arcy Echols "Legend", a Tom Burgess-Jerry Fisher re-worked Enfield and some of the new Mausers such as the one sold by NECG. I know that I need these, even my wife agrees, but my banker somehow doesn't see the light......



As to custom makers using Dakota actions, I talked to Al Lind some years ago and his first suggestion was a Dakota. He has a pretty good reputation and i wish I had been able to follow through on the project. I think that at least some of the animosity shown by some custom 'smiths toward Dakota is based more upon personal issues than any objective analysis of the action itself.



I very strongly agree about the ball detente, I prefer the bolt release to the 70s and I feel that they could/should have put a larger flange on the shroud. Still, in today's world, I am glad I have this rifle and satisfied with it in most respects.

Joe, I don't know which of the new-production Mauser 98-pattern actions is actually the best. A couple of custom makers I know have shared the opinion that Hartmann & Weiss makes the very best of the new Mauser 98 actions, but these are very, very expensive and it sounds like they're tough to get.

Of the ones I've looked at myself, Granite Mountain Arms makes an action that impresses me a great deal. You can get these in about any size or configuration you want (square bridges, .505 Gibbs size, .250 Savage size, etc.), and it's my understanding that they are introducing a true WSM-size action this year at SCI. Again, the price is high (at least $1500 and likely much more), as is the quality.

I'm not a .338-06 shooter, but the guys I know who have used that cartridge extensively have 22" barrels on their rifles. That seems to be the ideal length.

AD

Mike375,

Can you explain why gunsmiths don't favor the P17 and or maybe the P14? I know why I don't want another having done a P17 but your point is not clear to me without more details.

As to my choice between a M70 or a Dakota I stand on what I posted above. If the Dakota were much better than the M70 I would have one. They are not in my estimation.

Then if I ran with a crowd that would be impressed by spending thousands on a tool that I could make work myself I might spend. But that work is more satisfying to do myself. And then I know it's done right. That's the whole idea of rifles and hunting to me. The feeling of self sufficiency.

Savage99,

Certainly in Australia if you were wanting a high end custom gun the gunsmith would try and discourage the use of the M17 or P14. Gunsmiths on this forum appear to be similar.

I suspect that one of the problems is that shooter will find the cost all too much and simply bail out of the project. Another issue will of course be what the gunsmith is equipped to handle.

I seem to remember that you mentioned "self sufficiency" once before in connection with custom guns and that is all good. However many people will want to own a gun that requires skills to make the gun that is way above their ability. For example, if I had exactly the same skills as you and wanted a gun where the wood and metal appeared to grow out of each other and where the checkering was about perfect, could I with the same skills as you make such a gun?

Mike

There was atime when I actually wanted a Dakota. At that time it would have cost me about 900.00 and even then I had trouble justifying it. Now that they are twice as much there's no chance! The complete rifles I have looked at are decent but again not quite what I would want for the money.
One reason many gunmakers may prefer to use some old Mauser or Winchester as opposed to a Dakota is to showcase their abilities. It is one thing to cough up 1200.00 for an action and screw a barrel onto it. I mean, the damn thing cost so much you can't afford to fix any shortcomings. What's more, you shouldn't have to! It is quite another thing to rework a less than perfect action so that it is functionally as good and, in some respects, better than the expensive action. It is the same reason I use reworked factory actions for my own target rifles. Any dork can screw a Hart barrel onto a 1200.00 Kodiak and have a pretty good outfit. It takes some effort to make a production action work that well. It's all about accomplishment I guess. Or maybe some sort of mental disability. Whatever!
I think many gunsmiths eschew the oppportunity to use the P17 simply because, while they may enjoya challenge, there are limits. The P-17 is the embodiment of ugly! It's heavy. The shape of the tang is, shall we say, functional at best! For some reason the Enfield designers decided to modify the excellent Mauser bolt stop/ejector system and make it bulky, ugly, and (in the case of the ejector spring)fragile.
You gunsmiths out there; How many Mauser ejector springs have you ever had to replace? How many Enfields? See what I mean?
Some smiths might like the challenge of trying to make the Enfield bottom metal look more attractive than a buffalo chip but not many. By the way, I think the trigger guard bows on the Enfields are among the most attractive. Obviously the influence of some rogue designer.
When it comes to the modern Mausers, I have seen the Hartmann& Wiess and they are a beautiful action but, Omigod, the price! What's more, they are unheat treated. I've looked at a bunch of the rifles built on these by Martin Hagn though and they are a beautiful piece when he's done with them.One interesting one though was the action which, after casehardening by a well know treater, literally selfdestructed whilst sitting on the bench. Cracks everywhere. I figured it must have been an alloy action he got by mistake rather than mild steel but that's only a theory.
Martin Hagn, by the way, is one of those gunmakers whose work makes me figure I'm not really a gunsmith. He shows me pieces I'm almost afraid to touch. Nonetheless he will show me things and ask my opinion just like my opinion matters. Or show me proposed design changes on the single shots and say "what do you think?". Just his way of being nice.
To get back to the subject at hand; If you like the Dakota's appearance and quality then you should have one. I think they are one of those which do engender some pride of ownership. If you by a used one you will always be able to get your money out of it if you decided it wasn't what you wanted after all. Or you can have it reworked into somethind even better. Your choice. Regards, Bill.

Sorry Allen, I don't genuflect when you opine just because you are "Allen Day". Nor am I impressed that we should rely on Allen Day's opinion because Allen Day says he is an expert! Opinions must stand on their own merits. And in this case, I don't think your's do. In any event, there are many well hunted men who have owned many firearms whose opinons vary from one another. And I imagine there are some who, notwithstanding their experience, don't know what the hell they are talking about. So, while I certainly think your experience is relevant, it is not dispositive. We are all prone to idiosyncratic, non-sensical biases.

You clearly have something against Dakota---perhaps against Don Allen for not consulting you, seeking your permission or obtaining your blessing before making millions? Why don't
you contact his wife and see if she will issue an apology on Don's behalf post mortem. Will that bring you around?

Why don't more custom gun makers use Dakota, preferring as you imply [unbelievably, I might add], the Remington 700, among other cheap, mass produced, embarrassing examples of American manufacturing skill and technology? I am not sure how many do or do not use Dakota. Neither are you. But let us grant your axiomatic premise and think of some reasons.... Uh....Because Allen Day thinks the mass and cheaply produced, sloppily fitted Rem 700 [and actions like it] is a superior piece of workmanship than the CNC machined from hardened bar stock, tightly toleranced, well engineered Dakota?! No Allen, I don't think that's the reason.

Savage99 explained a large part of it. The Dakota does not lend itself to the same amount of customization as an old Mauser or a Winchester. Let's be candid here. There is not alot of shaping to be done with Dakota bottom metal relative to, say, Mauser 98 bottom metal. There is also the fact that Dakota's are small ring actions. The custom builders and buyers seem to like the large ring Mauser ambiance. I am generalizing of course. There is also the cost. Gunsmith's cost on a new Dakota 76 is about $1500.00, whereas an old Mauser can be had for a few hundred. And as Savage99 alluded, there are then thousands of dollars of embellishments which must be added to make the action presentable, for which the custom maker can charge but which the Dakota does not require. I wonder too if the hardness of the Dakota steel relative to others is not also a factor for some.

Frankly, the idea of "customizing" a Dakota action is almost an oxymoron. The Dakota is essentially a custom action out of the box. The tolerances, quality of steel and fit and finish are far superior to any of the production actions you mentioned Mr. Day. Indeed, you might look with a magnifying glass, or the naked eye for that matter, at the machining striations on the bolt, especially around the locking lugs of a current production Winchester and then compare it to the almost complete absence of such tearing and tool marks on a Dakota. Of course, in your vaunted experience and inverted logic, this shoddiness of workmanship is an example of high quality! Right? The sintering of the surface steel and massive tool marks on a Winchester current production bolt head and conversely, a complete absence of similar butchery on a Dakota is a good objective example of why I say in this instance, Mr. Day, your opinion is that of a complete ignoramus.


Jordan

Yeah...



And just maybe you have a vested interest in Dakota, and just maybe we've all listened to your pilgrim rants and have smelled your gas before - just under a different name than "Jordan".



No matter....I think you're a bag of wind attached to a mouth, and an ignorant one at that. About all you're good for is quoting someone else's claims verbatim, and not those of an objective third party with no commercial interest at stake. If you think the Dakota is so very perfect just as it comes from the factory and that it needs no blueprinting or adjustment of any kind, well... "Jordan", you're only kidding yourself. You're not going to bamboozle any of the rest of us, except for those who speculate from a standpoint of unfamiliarity - not of actual comparative experience.



I've got more news for you: This is a FORUM, and personally, I don't care what your rifle (or any other) preferrences are, and as far as I'm concerned, you can buy all of the Dakota rifles you can afford, sing their praises 'til you've gone froggy in the throat, and hopefully you'll enjoy them to the max for many a year.



But when you're displeasure with my opinions results in a concerted effort to discredit me, personally, you've crossed a line that you'd better back away from, and I mean muy pronto....



AD