Quote: If anyone knows a good forensic metallurgist please send me some contact info. � It is important to know what is causing these rifles to fail in this pattern.
Willikers, I would think so!
That's the most horrific catastrophic failure I've seen in almost four years, since this M1A. After months of 'Net babble about the rounds having been sabotaged back in the late '50s by the STASI and left wing death squads in the USA, Clint McKee of Fulton Armory, out of academic curiousity and the goodness of his heart, underwrote a metallurgical analysis which determined that the barrel was crap. (See: Report of Analysis.)
The good Dr. William J. Bruchey is quite a way from Washington State, however.
< !--color-->
Posts: 16 | Location: Long Island, USA | Registered: 12 December 2004
Well I've had it with Sako(Beretta). Sent them another email saying how dissapointed I am in their customer service, asking them for a letter explaining that my rifle is not affected, and the reasons for the problem. Not even a "we can't do tht at this time" Just flat out ignored. This is the third time I have sent the same email to customer service, replying to one sent to me asking me for my serial number. Ignored, ignored and finally ignored. I also wanted an explination as to why they posted nothing on their websight and why my dealer, had never heard of it. You guessed it, ignored. They can kiss my a$$. They will never get another dime from me. The even had the audacity to send me a customer service evaluation email in which I reponded by telling them it was lousy and they still haven't answered my questions. Once again........ignored. What a company.
Thanks. I figure this is the kind of stuff that is bad for the gun lobby, so I figure the NRA will at least look into it. I hope so. I own a blues Tikka T3 and I was thinking of buying a Sako, but you know, I like by body parts attached just like they are right now.
Kory
Posts: 860 | Location: Montana | Registered: 16 August 2004
I hear ya. I've got a 75ss in .300RUM, which being at the higher end of the pressure scale, makes me a little nervous. I'm sure you've read my previous posts in this thread. I'm more disappointed with the way they have handled it than anything else. I've probably put 100 rounds through my rifle, so I am not really concerned that it will blow. But it's that last little 5% of doubt that angers me. Who wants to shoot a rifle that they don't have 100% faith in? Not me. I will still shoot it, but I would like it MUCH more if this had never happened. It's a wonder I ever found out about it at all. Just happened to come across this site one day and noticed it. This thread is the reason why I joined AR. I sure wouldn't have ever found out about it from Beretta, even though their recall line states,"DO NOT shoot ANY stainless rifle purchased after Feb. 04." Pathetic at best.
George from Toronto, ONT, Canada had a rifle blow up on him back in October. He sustained minor injuries to his right hand. He has settled with Berretta/Sako, and states that his rep in Toronto has treated him very well. Al from Kelowna, on the other hand says that his rep in BC has been very unfriendly, and very unhelpful.
Here are George's pictures:
Posts: 7158 | Location: Snake River | Registered: 02 February 2004
Like it is. I can understand a bad batch of barrel steel.....and I can understand a bad batch of receiver steel......but since the barrels are rolled into short blanks then hammered forged....and since the Receivers are cast from molten steel then finish machined.....you know they have totally different sources for their steel. I can understand a barrel blowing up and leaving the receiver in one piece and visa versa but these rifles look like a bomb has gone off in them and that the receiver has no strenth at all. I notice the bolts look like new. I'm starting to wonder if all the SS receivers are weak and can't take it. And that when the barrel goes they are showing their weakness. As long as the barrel contains the pressure the receiver hasn't much to do. I think all Sako's with SS receivers might need to be carfully looked at. Something just isn't right about both giving way like they do. FNMauser
Posts: 170 | Location: Kentucky U.S.A. " The land that is dark with blood" | Registered: 31 May 2004
i am wondering how my sako 75 stainless synthetic is different even though it is imported by stoeger and made in 2000? did they use different steel then. do we know for a fact that all these rifles blowing up are new rifles? we know they are stainless but are they all new??????????/ i am starting ot wonder about mine?
Posts: 315 | Location: SOUTHEAST USA | Registered: 26 December 2003
Everything I have seen shows that they are all new. Even Beretta's recall line says "purchased after Feb. 2004." It also seems that all these rifles are blowing with less than 40 rounds through them. I don't think you have anything to worry about, but then again, don't take my word for it.
I have never regarded Sako rifles in the same league as plain old Mauser actions when it comes to safety factors. Between 1993 and 1999, I had three similar situation blow -ups through my gunsmithing shop. All three were 7mm Rem Mag rifles that were fired with 308 Win PMP ammo. Two were Sako L61 rifles and were completely destroyed. The third was a Parker Hale rifle with a commercial FN action similar to a Mauser 98. The woodwork was blown off the left side of the action but the metalwork stayed together.
Theres pictures of the SECOND(actually third or fourth alltogether) SAKO BLOWN UP in the Australian Hunting Net. Go to the Equipment sub-heading and look for "another Sako Blown Up" I am actually a victim by default of all this. My Tikka T-3 Lite/Stainless/Synthetic/.243w, (Non-Fluted) is at the Sako factory as Beretta Australia recalled it in October and I received my 2nd letter from Beretta Aust stating it's in Finland being tested and will either be tested only if no fault is founf and if a fault found with the barrel , it will be replaced and if theres further things wrong(I could only guess receiver brittleness)they say "another method to quantify normal operation will be employed" I'm a little P'd-Off with Beretta as I beleive our Nth American couzins had their Tikkas/Sakos replaced immediatly when the fault was suspected. Oh well.......us Aussies are used to being kicked in the guts when it comes to anything concerning guns! !
First of all my sympathies to those who have suffered serious injuries from these blowups.
The Sako actions are a containment system similar to the Remington 700 series. There is a small Sako action in the pistol case at a dealers in CT. It had been a 223 that was loaded with pistol powder by mistake. The front ring of the action blew apart and the barrel came out. I was told that the barrel was reused but it's not there to see.
The pictures of the blown Sakos look very much like those of the one blown up SS Savage ML10 II.
The facts in these blow ups are not all presented to us. Of course metalurgists must investigate it. It's not certain to me that the correct cartridges were fired in the rifles however nor that the ammunition was made right or for that matter that it took multiple reasons for the failures such as the steel being defective in some way and an overload of some sort.
One must wonder how many more Sako's and Tikka's are still out there in someones house or hands and they know nothing of the failures?
Possibly worded wrong, that was actually my question. I must admit, when it comes to getting the word out about a problem like this, I'm not too concerned about copyright law. If my son loses a hand over such bull****, Sako/Beretta will be on the receiving end of lawsuit. I'm not the suing kind, and usually deplore it, but in this case I think they deserve it.
I try to temper my anger with some common sense, and I do however, respect the copyright law. I was just wanting to do SOMETHING to get the word out before some unsuspecting shooter, who doesn't frequent the forums, gets hurt. Are we the only ones outraged, and thinking this is crazy not to warn people?
Thanks, I'll start tonite to put together a warning page with some pics. I feel helpless, and profoundly sorry for those who've been injured. There's absolutely no sense or reason for this kind of thing to continue.
I've learned ,from a loose-lipped Beretta employee, that the Tikka's affected are stainless rifles with the SERIAL NUMBER RANGE: 419140 To 461951 . My recalled stainless Tikka serial# was 437***.
Quote: I've learned ,from a loose-lipped Beretta employee, that the Tikka's affected are stainless rifles with the SERIAL NUMBER RANGE: 419140 To 461951 . My recalled stainless Tikka serial# was 437***.
So that's 461951-419140 = 42,811 potential failures out there in Tikkas.
Amazing isn't it? I wonder if Beretta would continue to act this way if they new about this thread, and someone with some pull over there actually read it. I don't know of too many people on this forum who are the"buy one gun" type, so it lookes to me like they are driving away their best customers. That's fine by me, there are plenty of other choices.
The only T-3 I heard of was in N.D.and it was a 243 fired with 100gr factory ammo. The injuries were slight to the left had that was resting on the top of the scope. I have not seen this gun or spoken the the guy, But am trying to do so now. This was mentioned earlier in this post I do belive. There is a story about it on thefiringline.com by a guy that was there at the time. And as mentioned bt MLG the young man in Sweeden was shooting a T-3.
Be Safe,
Mark
Posts: 18 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 30 October 2004
Quote: Downwindtracker, that's very possible . China is buying 25% of the worlds supply of steel !!! Your problems with 'garbage steel' is something I've heard from various sources.
A MAB (Brisbane Australia) s/s barrel that "let go" was apparently using steel from a factory/co. called Gloria, in Tiawan. FWIW. John L.
Posts: 2355 | Location: Australia | Registered: 14 November 2004
Quote: All the pictures that I have posted are in the public domain.
I will take you at your word, Sir.
In that regard, see: Catastrophic Rifle Failures. If I missed any proper attribution or credit, remedial action is only an E-mail away.
I have E-mailed Beretta USA and await a response from them. There was a "live" (and personable) woman staffing the toll-free number when I called earlier today to confirm it was still viable.
Posts: 16 | Location: Long Island, USA | Registered: 12 December 2004
I am not familiar with Sako rifles but some food for thought- The photos seem to show 3 locking lugs and some barrels and brass split evenly into thirds at the chamber. Could this be an action problem not a barrel problem? Would hate to see anyone hurt with a re-barreled action they thought was safe.
And Sakos response to this problem insures I will NEVER buy one of their rifles.
Posts: 353 | Location: Southern Black Hills SD | Registered: 20 October 2004
I spoke with a Scheel's rep a few days ago. I was asking him about the blow-ups. The rep told me that Sako has been doing a good job of notifying Scheels which guns are defective and then Scheels contacts their customers. Not sure how true this is.
The rep also stated, when a customer brought in their recalled gun, Scheels would overnight to Sako. Sako would change the barrel out and overnight it back to Scheels. Customers were without a gun for 3 days according to him. If Sako is just changing the barrels they must believe the problem is with the barrel and not any other part of the gun.
But unfortunately this is all hearsay and should be disregarded.
And thank you, JCN, for the use of your images, and the information to more fully credit you. <br /><br />I have probably taken the entire "gunwriting cadre" down several notches with that one page� all can readily see how one can do that much with precious little, if one has a mind to!<br /><br />The fact that neither Beretta USA's Customer Service contact, more their new(er) P.R. firm contact listed on their Website, have responded in over 36 hours, is puzzling. I'm not sure whether to aford them a <font color="green">Christmas Week< !--color--></font> dispensation, or to cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of <font color="red">TGZ</font>!
Quote: ... The photos seem to show 3 locking lugs and some barrels and brass split evenly into thirds at the chamber. Could this be an action problem not a barrel problem? ...
Hey 86thecat, It appears to my old eyes that they are separating at the "corner" of the cut through for the Bolt Lugs. When you think about it, if that "corner" is cut square rather than slightly rounded, then it would be expected to fracture there.
Not exactly like, but similar to, the receiver fracture at the back corner of the original M1's Bolt Recess. On the M1 the stress fracture occurred over time, but it appears Sako has somehow managed to "shorten" the fracture time. The M1s were corrected by a Design Change from a "square corner" to a "corner with a radius".
If however the Sako corner has an adequate "stress relief" radius (which I can't see) then my "speculation" is Full-of-Beans. And they could have fractured anywhere withing the cut-throughs.
---
It has always been interesting to me that when viewing a blown-up barrel, that they don't come apart along the Land-Groove corner in a spiral fashion. But, I've not seen a lot of them anyhow and certainly do not consider myself having seen enough of them to give a "good guess" as to "Why?" you typically see straight splits in the barrels.
Maybe it is like Lightning over-riding a Filter when the strike is just too close by. The release of power is so intense and so quick that it just continues to follow the fracture beginning in the chamber/receiver area.
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001
The Sako/Tikka Blowups are a disgrace. No excuses. I shoot Vintage (1918 Manufacture) Newton Rifles. Old Chas Newton used what he called 'truck axle' steel...chrome- vanadium...had strength of 155,000 vs about half that in the competition. There was never any record of a Newton blowing up in its history (none I'm aware of & was said to be none). The multiple screw type locking lugs had about 3X the bearing surface of a typical Mauser type (Winchester 70, Remington, etc 2 lug bolt). I've shot mine with probably about 65,000 pressure, maybe more. No problems. Point being...the modern rifle makers are run by profit making, advertising staff...who promote Madison Avenue Hype to get sales...thats Ok...but not at the expense of a dangerous product. The Newton Rifles produced today, like they were with similar materials and machining would never happen...as they would be too expensive to make...therefore not enough for the greedy merchants. So, my 1918 rifle is bull strong...and a modern 86 year newer rifle isn't safe? Absolutely disgraceful. I would never buy any Sako/Tikka Rifle (I used to have some) just as a protest to what's happened. P.O Ackley had run some rifle destruction tests deliberatly in his books: "Hnadbook for Shooters & Reloaders"...used gradually increased to loads to see how much the actions/barrels would take. Its instructive reading...even the lowly regarded 1 lug Krag did quite well with lots of high pressure. So, there's simply no excuse for what I've seen in these rifles blowups. None. Best Wishes All, Tom
hi I totaly agree with you.using crap quality free machining steel which is intended for making low strengt parts like screws for making gun barrel is a great disgrace to gunmakers. i have owned tikka in many years and was very satisfy of it's quality. it is a very sad development going on and tikka and sako are not the only gunmakers using this kind of low quality steel. regards danny
Posts: 1127 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 19 June 2000
Hot Core, Only a shade tree engineer but seems to me the barrel would have to stretch evenly to cause the receiver to split at all three weak points simultaneously. Whatever is happening the entire system let go and even if someone gave me one of those actions I would be very cautious no matter what barrel it had.
Posts: 353 | Location: Southern Black Hills SD | Registered: 20 October 2004
I've not seen any sort of actual Proof concerning what kind of steel Sako is using. Obviously a blind man could tell that the ones that blew up has a problem, but I don't take it as a proven fact that the normal steel used is of low quaility other than the defective lot...........DJ
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004
i have owned tikka in many years and was very satisfy of it's quality. it is a very sad development going on and tikka and sako are not the only gunmakers using this kind of low quality steel.
