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One of Us |
Hello all. I have seen a variety of postings on this topic and have a specific query: some people say metal is removed from the front of the action, some say from the back of the action and some say from both front and back to make a M98 handle a mag cartridge. Can someone offer an explanation of these techniques and reasons for each approach and does anyone have a few pics to add? I think it would be an interesting exercise. Thanks! Jeff | ||
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one of us |
I assume you are talking long magnum like a 375H&H. I have never seen one with all metal from the rear. Most I've seen like the Whitworth thin the rear of the magazine to a minimum then remove the rest in the front. Requires changes to the feed ramp which removes a lot of the support for the bottom lug. While I'm not crazy about it they have been doing it for years. As Dwayne W how his bottom metals are set up. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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| one of us |
I believe from all I've read here and elsewhere removing from the front is considered bad as it weakens the action more, typically it is preferred to remove as much from the back as possible (without interfering with the bolt stop) then remainder from the front if necessary. of course I'm not a gunsmith. I have handled a 98 in 375 (whitworth many years ago) but at the time didn't know enough to look how they'd done it. I know somebody here has about a bajillion whitworths in various calibers and will hopefully come along to give more information. I think the one everybody thinks of most often is a standard 98 in 416 rigby, which many have said should never be done. And of course Selby had one and it is famous and so everybody says it can be. There was a guy on here who was having one built to mirror the selby gun as closely as possible but I am not on here enough any more to know whatever became of that and where they decided to take the metal from. Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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sorry bout that one - yes, let's assume the subject cartridge is a 375 H&H and we have a std 98 commercial action as is in 30 06. curious if someone could get us there with pics if possible. | |||
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| One of Us |
Factory FN h+h mag   The way I cut the rear to lengthen   Lengthing the front    | |||
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| one of us |
Don's post is right on. I've also seen the front of the box extended with almost sheet metal and a couple of spot rivets on the side. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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One of Us |
Yes, I always lengthen the front AND rear, but move the rear farther back. Cut off the rear box plate entirely. That reduces the amount of lower lug support you have to remove. I also remove some meat from the bolt stop because of the distance I move the mag box rearward. | |||
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I don't mean to hijack this thread as a newbie here but would you mind explaining this. Do you mean cut off the top of the rear mag wall that extends up into the action in front of the bolt? This would mean there would be a gap between the top of the mag and bottom of the action. I'm to start a 404J build on a VZ24 and was thinking this method would get me a good amount of length at the rear. And coupled with taking meat from the rear of the action as well would mean I have to remove very little from the front. But would the gap between the top of the box and bottom of the action cause hang ups in the mag with feeding? Maybe if the mag wall was very slightly in front of the action this would help - so there is no step up, but a very slight step down for the cartridge? Also, on my bolt stop there is not much room to remove meat from before it starts reducing the protrusion into the bolt way, what are people's methods round this if you want to move the bolt further back? | |||
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One of Us |
I took a few photos of my Mauser 404J converted from the original 10,75x68 chambering. To the best of my knowledge this was done in Rhodesia as it was known back in the 70's. I have never had anything to do with opening actions up for longer cartridges so I cannot comment on this conversion other than it appears as though most of the opening up has been at the front of the action. My comments are: I have fired a lot of rounds through the rifle in 404 guise and the rounds feed like a hot knife through butter. Even blunt nosed cast bullets feed perfectly. The lower lug recess/feed ramp has taken a lot of the brunt of opening up the action but there has been no set back of the lug surfaces and I have checked the lower lug engagement which is fully engaged, the the upper lug engagement is massive. Has the action strength been compromised? Who knows and who is competent to know? My Marlin XL action does not seem to have anymore lower lug engagement than the Mauser in present guise. The photos show a 10.75x68 loaded round in the magazine and a 404J (10.75x73) loaded round in the magazine. There is a difference of 7.45mm in loaded length between the two cartridges.      | |||
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| One of Us |
what would be more cost effective: an aftermarket BM unit for a mag cart of having a say, 1909 BM unit reworked? | |||
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| one of us |
Simply go buy you a M70 already set up for a long magnum. Even a normal M70 magnum can be quickly converted by removing the mag spacer and cut the bolt stop and ejector. If you want a 98 action you need to consider that what is cheapest going in might not hold it's value. A Mark X or Daly would be cheaper going in but a FN or 1909 etc would have a better resale (normally) As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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An aftermarket such as a Blackburn or Weibe will be cheaper and feed better unless you can do the work yourself. Don | |||
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| one of us |
Wouldn't that just cover his bottom metal? He would still need to add action work. A bunch of metal to remove in the feed ramp area. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Thanks for the photos eagle, that is a nice looking rifle. You wouldn't happen to know the total magazine length would you? | |||
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| One of Us |
As you can see in the second to last photo of a loaded 404J round in the magazine box it is a snug fit with only minimal clearance. The loaded round is 87.75mm in length so the magazine length would be no longer than 89mm. Even though it appears to be a tight fit, I have never experienced any difficulties in charging the magazine or any hangups in working rounds from the magazine. BTW the mag holds 3.5 rounds so with one up and 3 down I have a genuine 40cal x 4 aka 404! | |||
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89mm is 3.504", that's quite a bit shorter than some others recommended (somewhere...) of 3.65". But Von Gruff says his is 3.508", so maybe I'll really rethink it. If I go even 3.510" I might almost get away with taking no meat from the front of the action! Is there no way you'd ever want to load a 404J to more than 3.500"? | |||
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With standard round nose 'original Kynoch' or Woodleigh profile bullets the base of the bullet when seated to or crimped in the cannelure is neatly at the case neck/shoulder junction therefore not intruding into powder space. I have a Barnes TSX bullet which understandably is quite long and if seated to the same OAL as the original profile RN bullets it would protrude into the powder space somewhat. I have never loaded anything other than RN bullets apart from my 400gr cast which is more of the TSX profile but i seat these to same OAL to fit the magazine. Von Gruff, who gave me the Barnes TSX sample, has loaded these and presumably these have to intrude into the powder space as his magazine is the same length as mine. He has had excellent results with his TSX loads so it does not seem an issue if loading the bullet deeper to suit a slightly shorter magazine length. | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes exactly, but the mag work alone will cost more than a blackburn. Unless you get someone to work cheap, but you usually get what you pay for. Either way the mag is obviously only part of the equation. Don | |||
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| one of us |
I agree with you if I wasn't able to do it myself(I work for myself real cheap  ) I would go custom.To me easy way to fit is buy the bottom metal then cut the action to match. You posted some very nice looking work by the way. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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thanks, guys but let me just check my own understanding here; let's say for discussion sake someone buys a Blackburn (now Swift) BM Unit which would be the BM itself, the magazine and the follower, right? That is attached via screws to the receiver. What does mag work mean and refer to, please? | |||
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| one of us |
I don't know if the swift unit includes follower and spring. The bottom metal will determine how much metal will need to be removed in the rear(if any) and in the front. Probably a partial list of what is needed. Alter the bolt head and extractor. Remove any metal need in the rear of the acton to match the mag. Might require minor changes to the bolt stop and ejector. Remove metal in the front of the action and retaper the feed ramp to match the bottom metal. Alter feed ramps. Unless you have your heart set on a 98 you could buy a M70 for about the cost of the bottom metal. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I have a M70 in 375 actually but as a LH shooter the question originally emanated from looking at some 375 Mausers and wondering if a gunsmith would prefer to make a 375 out of a Zastava beginning with a 3006 so they could remove precisely the amount of metal they wanted. This is a most interesting thread! | |||
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| one of us |
Did Zastava bring out the LH in the 375? If you can get past the cross pin release the factory bottom metal is not that bad. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I think some were bought in the group buy last winter and I saw some on tradexcanada's web site but no idea beyond that. | |||
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By mag work I meant the work to convert an existing mag box to a different caliber. If you convert one or buy one you still need to cut the receiver to match the magazine. Don | |||
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| One of Us |
and this is the step(s) where metal is then removed? | |||
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I think some of us, (me at the very least) would dearly love to see that action from the bottom side with the magazine removed.  Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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ColoradoMatt, I see you are having a 98 opened for the 416 Rigby in the image of Selby's famous 416. I have heard a few rumblings out in the vege patch lately so just wanted to keep the 404 together in case it was needed  I will get a couple of shots of the underside of my Mauser action and post them for you in the next couple of days. Could use an excuse to get it back on the range to shoot in again anyway. | |||
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Thanks, that would be awesome! Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing question regarding converting M98s to fit mag carts
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