I'm pretty certain we don't all see this from the same perspective.

One of the pleasures I derive--and pains--is watching the way we define ourselves on AR.

Me?

I'm an English major, sometimes published (enough to establish myself as a writer/photographer) obsessed with fine rifles.

I love the metal, I love the wood, I love the challenge of ballistics, I love to shoot.

I love our inheritance of the tradition of Mausers.

So...

When I see posts by those who purchased a rifle, and are disappointed, well, sorry, but... money doesn't establish your moral superiority.

Why don't you build it yourself?

Is it too much to ask that you should take the risks of the creator?

Are you too timid to change places with the smith who takes a file to 33/40?

Do you have the courage (and self-confidence) of the stockmaker who takes a gouge to an expensive blank?

For those of you inclined to rag on smiths and stockmakers, puhleeeze... spare us.

We're inclined to think that you can afford thousands for your next trip to Africa, or out of state tags for an elk, or your trophy room.

Or your trophy wife.

Didn't you notice this is the Gunsmithing Forum?

flaco

N.B. I've spent more for a blank than I paid for my beater car.

And happy to do it. Although I love my VW wabbit.

LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
I'm pretty certain we don't all see this from the same perspective.

One of the pleasures I derive--and pains--is watching the way we define ourselves on AR.

Me?

I'm an English major, sometimes published (enough to establish myself as a writer/photographer) obsessed with fine rifles.

I love the metal, I love the wood, I love the challenge of ballistics, I love to shoot.

I love our inheritance of the tradition of Mausers.

So...

When I see posts by those who purchased a rifle, and are disappointed, well, sorry, but... money doesn't establish your moral superiority.

Why don't you build it yourself?

Is it too much to ask that you should take the risks of the creator?

Are you too timid to change places with the smith who takes a file to 33/40?

Do you have the courage (and self-confidence) of the stockmaker who takes a gouge to an expensive blank?

For those of you inclined to rag on smiths and stockmakers, puhleeeze... spare us.

We're inclined to think that you can afford thousands for your next trip to Africa, or out of state tags for an elk, or your trophy room.

Or your trophy wife.

Didn't you notice this is the Gunsmithing Forum?

flaco

N.B. I've spent more for a blank than I paid for my beater car.

And happy to do it. Although I love my VW wabbit.

LOL.

I don't come here to see a bunch of "preaching". Like all the above!

flaco, I do understand some of what you are saying, but you are right, there are different perspectives. You are also right that a lot of the reason folks don't make their own is exactly "timidity". I have several custom and semi-custom rifles and I learned that I have some timidity toward parts of it. I have done some of the metal work, but I found for $1500 or less, I can have exactly what I want in the way of metal work and all I have to do is supply the action and $$$. That leaves me free to do the part I have absolutely no problem screwing up, and LOVE doing, and that is the stock. I now, with Chic's inestimable help, do the stock all myself. Yes, it is intimidating to look at an expensive blank and imagine just how badly I can really screw it up (been there, done that), but I can also imagine how nice it just might look. I have made a mistake of paying more to have a gunsmith "finish" inletting a stock and glass bedding it, than I paid for my first two cars. I also learned that for that kind of money, I could do it myself, and better.

But them again, I am not sure I understand your point.

Um, well....I'm a redhead. I love metal and wood, don't care for synthetic, like mil actions, don't care for rem700's. Like Jack Daniels with Coke, cigars, pipes, the smell of hot metal and playing in my shop.

I don't really think it matters much how we define ourselves. I know doctors (med.,ed, eng, phd) and the ones that don't define themselves I think are my favorites, I have a friend that I didn't know until we did a presentation together and saw his name on the paper that he was a doctor. never came up. How do we define each other???? that would be more what I want to know. I always enjoy hearing other people describe somebody. (Although I make it a point to not find out how I am described )

I come to this site mainly for information, and have gotten a lot here. I think it is silly to say that people don't build guns for themselves because they don't have the courage. There are many factors, the least of which IS NOT skill. You can't build a Jerry Fisher quality rifle right off the line. Some enjoy it, do it as a hobby and are happy to work at it till they are satisfied with their level of proficiency. Others don't have the time to get good, the ability, equipment, space etc. to do it. Some of those people are fortunate enough to have the money that they can pay somebody else to do it for them (damn I hate them )

It could just be a decision, sometimes it is better/less stressful/more efficient. I just spent 1100 dollars having sprinklers put in the backyard (the last of our tax return). I ran the drain pipe, electrical conduit, and gas line myself, but when it came time I knew I will not get to it and would waste too much time and had no idea what I was doing, so I bit the bullet. Being afraid to take a spokeshave to an expensive blank may be a factor for some people, but I wouldn't want to make a decision on the sentencing of a criminal, be responsible for business decisions that affect the livelihood of employees or gamble in real estate or markets where one bad thing could crush my finances like some of these people that have the 3500 bucks for a rifle.

I don't like it when it is just a bitch fest here, or when people are obviously dicks about an incident and haven't been as upright as they expect the craftsman to be on their end. That isn't to take away from people that have legitimate issues, or friends that sometimes just want to vent briefly (I vented at least once about a personal rifle incident but declined to give any names, just wanting to get the frustration off my chest to sympathetic ears and look for ideas on fixing it). I prefer it when the person is also seeking a solution (I by the way did find a solution through this site), or has exhausted all avenues. Either we are a bunch of strangers trying to suck knowledge out of each other and/or take advantage of the electronic mediary to make ourselves into something more than we are OR we are a group of people with a common interest that are becoming as good of friends as communication without contact allows and share our knowledge and experiences to help each other and enhance our mutual enjoyment of firearms and hunting.

I personally like to think it is the latter.

Red

the main reason is i want my gun to work properly and not look as if it were struck with polio somewhere along the way. i look at the guns being built by members here and guns comissioned by members and nearly loose my mind. while i don't YET have a custom rifle i will evetualy have someone build me a rifle to drool over and take hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:


N.B. I've spent more for a blank than I paid for my beater car.

And happy to do it. Although I love my VW wabbit.

LOL.

You have your priororities in the right order.

Flaco, I've noticed that people that appreciate gun work the most are people who have tried it themselves. I learned to appreciate musicians far more after I tried to play an instrument myself. It gave me a far better perspective on how good the top musicians really are. It's true that the easier someone makes something look the better they are at it.

So I think you make a good point that people should maybe try a little gun work for themselves so that they can appreciate how good some of our Builders are. They might also be more understanding of some of the difficulties.

All that being said I have friends that scare me to death the second they touch so much as a screwdriver! Working with sharp instruments is just something some people need to avoid for the safety of themselves, others and their firearms............ ..........DJ

Well, I was working on a semi inlet tonight and like an idiot I used a punch and a hammer to make the small hole for that pin that holds the bolt stop on a mauser. I hit it one to many times and off came a huge chunk of wood after I had worked many hours on doing a fairly good and tight job of inletting.

So I kind of agree. I think a guy ought to know a little bit about what its like to pay the price a few times in order to get good at this gunsmithing work. It isn't all that easy standing in front of a bench putting a piece of metalwork into a stock a hundred times to scrape off tiny tiny bits of wood so the thing looks like it grew there.

Why don't you build it yourself? BECAUSE I HAVE NO TALENT.

Is it too much to ask that you should take the risks of the creator? PRETTY MUCH, YEP.

Are you too timid to change places with the smith who takes a file to 33/40? I DID STONE AND POLISH A BEATER M70 ONE TIME BUT I WOULDN'T TOUCH A GOOD ACTION.

Do you have the courage (and self-confidence) of the stockmaker who takes a gouge to an expensive blank? NOT A CHANCE.

For those of you inclined to rag on smiths and stockmakers, puhleeeze... spare us. IF IT WERE REALLY THAT DIFFICULT, WHY ARE THERE SO MANY TALENTED GUNMAKERS WILLING TO WORK FOR $30/HR?

Recent post from flaco
"Dennis welded three Talleys for me, on '09s.

Nothing's finished yet--although I just got the actions back from Pacific Metallurgical, and they look very good--but it appears the bolt handles will fit beneath the scope in low Warne rings.

flaco"

So why didnt you weld the bolt knobs on yourself. Sorry, couldn't help myself. You made an excellent post, although I don't necessarily agree with it but it does get a person thinking. And if it irks hot core, then it has merit in itself.

I think if you look at a lot of tasks and the equipment you need to buy to do that item then it is often more cost effective and sensible to farm it out. I think DagoRed already said that.

A lot of it also is due to available time. Not only the the time to do it but the time to learn. I went to two back to back Mark Strattons metalsmithing classes in Trinidad Co. We drove down together, went to a Colorado Rockies baseball game on the way and generally had a great time of it all. I vowed on the way not to buy any of the necessary equipment to do this work myself. I ordered the lathe when I got home and later bought a gunsmith friends milling machine. I later found out that I really do not have the time to get proficient with the machinery to the point where it would an asset to me. The equipment now resides in Roger Kehr's shop and it is getting used more in one month than it did with me in a year.

I think some folks are just not into building it themselves but I do agree with DJ, if you do, you will gain an appreciation you can not get by holding onto it. As as Forrest stated, he has no talent. I feel the same way with engraving. The thing that Forrest and I and a number of others share and they may build their own fine guns or have them built and that is a love for and an eye for what makes a fine custom gun. There are a relative few of those builders like the Wiebe, Steve Heilman etc. that are in up in the rarer air.

And most of us just slug along beause everyone can't be a Leonardo Da Vinci. If it was no so, the phone books would be a damn nightmare.

quote:

And most of us just slug along beause everyone can't be a Leonardo Da Vinci.

There was an artist on PBS that would create a painting using house brushes and putty knifes (his name escapes me now). While he may not have been a Da Vinci class artist, he was no less of a master in his own right. Well, if I pick up a house brush and a putty knife, it had damn well better be to paint the barn with. And I don't mean on canvas. I also dare not go near a piece of wood with chisel and rasp with the intent of creating a gun stock! Therefore I choose to leave those tasks to artists/gentlemen such as Customstocks and others of his ilk that can produce something that is beautiful to behold and a pleasure to own. If I don't have the time or $$ for their talents then synthetic gets the nod.

I too have taken some of the Trinidad courses (metalsmithing type) and now have 3 lathes, space reserved for a mill and still have to be very careful when I touch a tool to metal. However, I am not afraid to do so. I actually enjoy this type of work and while I will never be in the class of the "GURUs", I manage to turn out acceptable (for me) work. Bottom line is that I think it is just a matter of what one is comfortable with. I don't want to make a $1000, $300, or even a $50 pile of toothpicks. I don't mind turning and shaping metal however. Just don't expect me to embellish it! That's what Scrollcutter and his band do so well.

quote:

Originally posted by Thaine:

quote:

And most of us just slug along beause everyone can't be a Leonardo Da Vinci.

There was an artist on PBS that would create a painting using house brushes and putty knifes (his name escapes me now). While he may not have been a Da Vinci class artist, he was no less of a master in his own right.

Bob Ross, "let's put a nice tree here and a happy little cloud!"

Bob was in the Air Force for 20 yeras and started to paint while stationed in Alaska. He passed away in 1995 but left behind Bob Ross Inc. which is still going strong and making a ton of money for his descendants. Good Night now.

I visit this forum to hear the ideas and see the output of skilled people. I don't believe appreciation of something is derived from having tried to do that operation. I love fine timepieces and own 5 but would never try to either build nor repair one. I like music but don't even sing in the shower I'm so bad at it. I like sports cars and own one . I am somewhat skilled in that area and do work on it but far prefer to have someone else do it. I think it is demeaning to say someone who has never tried to build a rifle cannot comment on one good or bad. This forum is about ideas is it not and ideas come from interchange of information and opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Thaine:

quote:

And most of us just slug along beause everyone can't be a Leonardo Da Vinci.

There was an artist on PBS that would create a painting using house brushes and putty knifes (his name escapes me now). While he may not have been a Da Vinci class artist, he was no less of a master in his own right. Well, if I pick up a house brush and a putty knife, it had damn well better be to paint the barn with. And I don't mean on canvas. I also dare not go near a piece of wood with chisel and rasp with the intent of creating a gun stock! Therefore I choose to leave those tasks to artists/gentlemen such as Customstocks and others of his ilk that can produce something that is beautiful to behold and a pleasure to own. If I don't have the time or $$ for their talents then synthetic gets the nod.

I too have taken some of the Trinidad courses (metalsmithing type) and now have 3 lathes, space reserved for a mill and still have to be very careful when I touch a tool to metal. However, I am not afraid to do so. I actually enjoy this type of work and while I will never be in the class of the "GURUs", I manage to turn out acceptable (for me) work. Bottom line is that I think it is just a matter of what one is comfortable with. I don't want to make a $1000, $300, or even a $50 pile of toothpicks. I don't mind turning and shaping metal however. Just don't expect me to embellish it! That's what Scrollcutter and his band do so well.

I'm just the opposite, I'll try any project with wood....It's metal that scares me.

I am one of the people that are going to try to work my way up to doing it all myself... and if I screw it up, there are GURUs I can turn to here on AR.

I guess I have to have something to do in between hunting seasons.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I think it is demeaning to say someone who has never tried to build a rifle cannot comment on one good or bad.

Zimbabwe that's not at all what I was trying to say. I'm just saying that doing something will give you another level of appreciation, so sometimes when possible it's good to try. But metalwork and woodwork are not for everyone.
One of my best buddies who has helped me tremendously with my stockmaking probably wouldn't know which end of the chisel to stick in the wood, but he has excellent taste and a good eye so he can advise me well on how something should look. Please don't think for a moment that just because you aren't a gunsmith that you shouldn't comment here, sometimes the best advice comes from different quarters...............DJ

djpaintles,
I was speaking of the notion that someone who has not tried something cannot appreciate that thing or operation. I don't believe that to be true and feel it is an elitest attitude. I would hope this to be a more open forum than that. While I am not personally in the class with the great gunsmiths I am school trained and have been building bigbore rifles for over 50 years but not commercially. Neither do I paint but I can appreciate the skill required and can enjoy a good painting.

The thing that irks me most in my trade is : If I had the tools I would do it myself. I got the tools to do most things with a rifle, but I know what my limitations are. If I do something myself it is not to take money from a craftsman, it is to learn. The craftsman on this board that I have used know that I don't beat on them about their price. I let them laugh at my screw ups just like I laugh at some of my clients screwups. I would never want to do any type of gunsmithing for a living. I just love to do the few little things that I know for my own satisfaction. Kind of a chopped up response from me on this thread.
Butch

Zim,
I don't think DJ was proposing something that could be construed as an elitist attitude. Just that, if you've never TRIED to do it yourself, then you may never know the true magnitude of how difficult, or stimulating, or frustrating (or satisfying) a task may be. I'm no stockmaker, woodworker, metalsmith, or gunsmith, but, damn, it's fun to try. You just need to know your limitations.

Several years ago, a "Cycle" magazine editor, who was a pretty fair roadracer himself, described his own inadequacies in piloting the RG500 Suzuki, which was a 200 mph scapel. To paraphrase, "...the RG500 is like a Stradovarius. I can pluck the strings, but I can't make the music..." It's how I feel about my wood- and metal-working skills, but I dearly love to pluck the strings.

Maybe, just maybe, if more of us tried to do some of our own gunwork, we would have a better appreciation of those who do it well. I'm pretty sure that's what DJ meant....

Have a nice evening....

MKane160

MKane160,
I'm sorry I spoke since everyone seems to misunderstand what I'm trying to say which is standard for me. Why is gunsmithing set aside to be the one skill I cannot appreciate if I have not attempted it personally. As I said I don't build or repair watches and yet I appreciate the skill involved. Most of life is this way and I just don't restrict ones right to comment or complain as the case may be simply because I haven't tried to do it myself. Again I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Zim,
No problem. We're mostly all friends here. Just different perspectives being voiced....

MKane160