a mate just had a remington 700bdl in 7mm remmag reblued so i talked him into getting it floated and bedded the work was done by a competent gunsmith, the gun used to shoot 1" at 100yd but now its gone out to 2.5" weve checked all screws in stock monuts rings nothing was loose it just doesnt want to shoot what should we do now?

Assuming you haven't changed loads, look the crown over REALLY good. They can be damaged during the bluing process if the person doing the metal prep wasn't careful enough. Look it over under good lighting. There shouldn't be ANY sign of damage.

Perhaps the gun is one of those that needs a little pressure on the barrel at the forearm tip. Wedge a couple of business cards between the barrel and the stock and see if it settles down. Aside from what you've already done, these are the immediate things I would look at.

Did you torq your reciever screws or just check for tight, Remingtons can be fussy about that.

Does it matter if the blueing gets into the barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Does it matter if the blueing gets into the barrel?

No, the bluing itself doesn't hurt, it's the preparation process and how the gun is handled during the bluing operation that can cause problems. For instance, a bore can be damaged during the bead blasting operation if the bore isn't sealed and protected. Crowns can become disfigured and horribly damaged during the metal prep if centers become loose while spinning a barrel during polishing, or, suspension rods or wires are carelessly yanked from the bore after bluing. Luckily most bluing operations are careful in how they handle firearms, but, there are those who could care less. That is why it is important to always pick a reputable shop when having work done.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Does it matter if the blueing gets into the barrel?

Views on this subject vary considerably. The late Paul Marquart (the "M" in the A&M Barrel Company) believed very strongly that bluing the inside of a barrel with hot bluing salts DID damage the accuracy of many barrels.

On numerous occasions he barreled guns which shot exceeding well when they left his shop to rejoin their owners. Then the owners had them blued by someone local (to save money). When they then tried the newly barreled rig out, they'd ended up complaining to Paul about the accuracy of his barrel on their gun.

(Of course they always want to blame the barrel-maker.)

So, Paul would have them return the rifle. He'd test the gun again, comparing the targets from the blued barrel against the retained target of how the barrel shot when it left his shop, unblued. Usually the customer was right, the barrel was now NOT shooting well. Nor was it shooting anything like as well as the unblued barrel had when Paul installed it.

So, Paul would lap the bluing out of the barrel, and it would go right back to shooting well.

In later years, he would refuse to guarantee the accuracy of a barrel which had been blued after leaving his shop, unless the customer let Paul have HIS gun-bluer do the work. That fellow, who is located in Cottonwood, Arizona, always plugs the barrels prior to putting them in the bluing bath so that none of the bluing salts comes in contact with the bore, ever.

Bluing is, after all, a controlled oxidation (rusting) process. Few people I know want their bores rusted, intentionally or otherwise, if they really think about it.

Ta yes I thought I'd read something like that many years ago.

Sambar, I have learned this lesson well too many times myself.

I understand the desire to re-blue it. However, the lesson I have learned is that if a hunting rifle such as this is shooting 1", then leave it be. For every time you get a 1/2" gun, three times it will go bad.

i.e., if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Alberta

I'm sure Marquart was correct about the effects of caustic bluing. But these guys were dealing with best rest rifles that were shooting groups in the .200 inch category at 100 yds and had a right to be upset when they shot in the .300 inch category.

I'm siding with Malm. To make the accuracy fall from 1 inch to to 2 1/2 inches I would be examining the crown and I would also take a look at the bore with a bore scope. I too know of gun plumbers who are very rough when running wire or rods through the bore when prepping for the bluing tanks.

I too have experienced barrels that would not group well at all floated but showed much improvement when the barrel had a little bit of pressure at the end of the stock.

One other thing to check for. Attach a dial indicator to the stock with the stylus on the barrel. Alternately tighten and loosen the action screws. If you have more than .004 inch movement your bedding is wrong. If there is absolutely no movement then something is stuck and that is not desireable either. What you want to see is .001 to .003 movement.

You may ask how can a glass bedded action not be correct. If the bedding is not correct when the barreled action is set in the glass and the gunsmith torques the action screws tight, then he will be glass bedding the faults that already exist. The action screws must be used to seat the barreled action then backed off a quarter turn so the action is not stressed.

sambar1,you must be new to the shooting sports,so let me help you.Buy yourself a one piece cleaning rod and some JB compound and a good jag(the one with rings aound the bottom).Also buy a 2 bags of 2or 3 inch square patches.Buy some shooters choice as well(ask for it by name).Buy a stainless steel rod made by pro-shot,that one works best.Set a whole afternoon aside for gun cleaning.Dip a patch into the JB untill it is completely covered and then stab it unto the jag.Short stroke it up through the barrell untill it emerges through the muzzle.Get a new patch and repeat.Wet a patch with solvent and pass it through the bore.Repeat with JB compound.Repeat cycle 30 times.Go to the range and see if accuracy is restored.If not check scope ring screws.If it still does not shoot that means it has been shot out(you need a new rifle).Try this and give feedback.You don't have to go to a gunsmith to get a rifle bedded and free floated.I'll guide you through the process step by step.A rifle does not have to have a barrell free floated to shoot well,that is garbage.What does your name mean,is that a place somewhere?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Go to the range and see if accuracy is restored.If not check scope ring screws.If it still does not shoot that means it has been shot out(you need a new rifle).

quote:

A rifle does not have to have a barrell free floated to shoot well,that is garbage.

What???

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
sambar1,you must be new to the shooting sports,so let me help you.Buy yourself a one piece cleaning rod and some JB compound and a good jag(the one with rings aound the bottom).Also buy a 2 bags of 2or 3 inch square patches.Buy some shooters choice as well(ask for it by name).Buy a stainless steel rod made by pro-shot,that one works best.Set a whole afternoon aside for gun cleaning.Dip a patch into the JB untill it is completely covered and then stab it unto the jag.Short stroke it up through the barrell untill it emerges through the muzzle.Get a new patch and repeat.Wet a patch with solvent and pass it through the bore.Repeat with JB compound.Repeat cycle 30 times.Go to the range and see if accuracy is restored.If not check scope ring screws.If it still does not shoot that means it has been shot out(you need a new rifle).Try this and give feedback.You don't have to go to a gunsmith to get a rifle bedded and free floated.I'll guide you through the process step by step.A rifle does not have to have a barrell free floated to shoot well,that is garbage.What does your name mean,is that a place somewhere?

Better advice can be had. Nate

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
Alberta

I'm sure Marquart was correct about the effects of caustic bluing. But these guys were dealing with best rest rifles that were shooting groups in the .200 inch category at 100 yds and had a right to be upset when they shot in the .300 inch category.

Not so. Paul had long been out of the benchrest barrel business when he made this his policy. Matter of fact, at the time, he did not make any barrels smaller than 7 m/m bore.

When he barreled my Ruger No. 1 to 6.5x53-R in 1985, we had to buy the barrel, (we got a Hart) because Paul did not make barrels of that small bore for some 12-15 years before his death.
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quote:

I'm siding with Malm. To make the accuracy fall from 1 inch to to 2 1/2 inches I would be examining the crown and I would also take a look at the bore with a bore scope. .

Malm may very well be correct in what is affecting this specific rifle. I was not disagreeing with that. I was answering the question asked, which was whether bluing can hurt the performance of a barrel. Paul definitely felt the answer to be "yes". He had personally found it to cause barrels which had left his shop shooting well under an inch in sporters to come back shooting 1-1/2" + after being blued inside.

Of course bluing is not the only thing that can negatively affect accuracy, but those things are answers to other questions.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
.What does your name mean,is that a place somewhere?

What, you don't have Sambar deer over there?

Another help is to relieve the bedding or wood to the outside of the recoil lug (right and left sides).

Alberta Canuck

Good point. I did not realize Marquart was dealing with larger bores.

I dont want this to sound argumentive but as a lot of gunsmiths agree, sometimes we get differant results when using similar techniques.

In the past several years when I rebarreled a rifle with a chrome moly barrel I always did the bluing too. I did not fire them in the white so I had no way to compare before and after results. But when tested they always gave excellant accuracy. I am very particular about protecting the bore and crown from any damage when polishing and bluing.

I never "plugged" the bore due to safety concerns. At 290 degrees you have a potential compressed air bomb waiting to go off and spew hot caustic chemicals all over the operator.

I do want to make the point that the average gun owner would suprised how badly their guns are mistreated when reblued at some shops. Not all shops but some. When polishing barrels as mentioned earlier, a lot of the time a device called a barrel spinner is used where a "center is placed in the crown and chamber so the barrel can be spun as it is polished. Nothing wrong with that when used properly but when used carelessly can play havoc on the crown. And as mentioned before wire or rods inserted or removed carelessly in the bore can damage the bore. Point is check referances before you let just any shop blue your firearm.

Your points are well taken, Crfaftsman. It is not my intent to argue against any of them.

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I have heard many times that the air in a plugged barrel, when in the heated bluing tank, is a potential bomb. In actual practice, it does not work out that way when properly done.

The plugging method which seems to work the best that I have seen is to place a highly polished steel rod in the barrel, enough smaller than the bore to be appropriate, and which is threaded on both ends.

Two cone-shaped rubber-like plugs made with stainless steel bushings in their centers are then threaded onto the rod...one at the chamber end, and one at the muzzle end.

The plugs are turned until the rubbery portions of the plugs are tight against both the ends of the rifle bore. Then the barrel (or barreled action) is placed in the hot bluing bath. The bluing system I used for years (Lynx-line "Blu-blak") usually worked best when run a bit hotter than 290 degrees...about 295 F or so, depending on the steel alloy being blued. Even at that temp there was no danger of an explosion.

If the pressure of the heated air builds enough, a few bubbles of air might possibly escape (vent) past the plugs, but not enough to cause any problems. Threading the plugs onto the rod holds the blugs tight enough to prevent any leaks from occuring, but the flexibility of the flexible plugs also allows hot air to vent before too much pressure builds up. If a few bubbles do escape, they still don't let any caustic colution into the bore.

Clearly, any air escaping has to have enough pressure to overcome the force of the caustic solution pressing against the outside of the plug(s), and in doing so, it keeps the caustic matter at bay. It is also clear that the reverse will not occur....that is, the air inside the barrel will not drop in temp enough to "suck in" any caustic solution so long as the barrel is immersed in the hot "caustic tank".

I may not have explained this clearly, but anyway, such plugs work well, and I recommend them to any bluer who wants to avoid potential bluing damage to rifle bores.

Best wishes,

Alberta Canuck