Will you guys post some pics of your express sights and reasons you like them. On my current project gun I have NEGC express sights and it is going to be time to sight them in and cut them down. Do yall like deep "v" shallow "v", slope both sides toward the "v" or mill them down to where it is straaight across. You guys get the idea. Thanks for the input.

Perry

On a British pattern, usually only the standing blade is a wide V, for quick shots at 50 meters. The folding leaves are usually flat topped with a U, for precision.

On a Continental pattern, the standing blade is also flat topped with a U, with the folding leaves flush against it when upright.

I've seen some American pattern lever actions where the folding leaves have a narrow V, but I didn't find them very good for precision. They don't give you equal light around the bead as a U does.

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
On a British pattern, usually only the standing blade is a wide V, for quick shots at 50 meters. The folding leaves are usually flat topped with a U, for precision.

On a Continental pattern, the standing blade is also flat topped with a U, with the folding leaves flush against it when upright.

I've seen some American pattern lever actions where the folding leaves have a narrow V, but I didn't find them very good for precision. They don't give you equal light around the bead as a U does.

Can you help with pics?

What I consider the British pattern. Wide standing blade. Flat topped leaves with U for accuracy.


What I consider the Continental pattern. Usually found on Oberdorf Mausers and Mannlicher-Schoenauers.


The narrow little V's, which I've never found to be useful, can be seen on this rifle:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun...sp?hierarchyId=10473
Look at the lower left picture.

None of these rifles are mine (yet), but they make good examples.

More pics anyone or input?

Forrest are you out there?

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Will you guys post some pics of your express sights and reasons you like them. On my current project gun I have NEGC express sights and it is going to be time to sight them in and cut them down. Do yall like deep "v" shallow "v", slope both sides toward the "v" or mill them down to where it is straaight across. You guys get the idea. Thanks for the input.

Perry

I prefer a shallow "V", because a deep "V" obscures part of the target, like a "buck-horn does. You want to see as much of the target as you can. I have seen those express sights you mentioned with the straight top edge. You centered the front bead by using the relatively broad vertical platinum inlay that runs up the center of the rear blades.

Personally, I like the "V" shape better, because you can "roll the pumpkin (front bead) down the hill" to center it, and that is fast and feels natural. I also like a pretty big fat ivory bead up front-one that can be seen under ANY lighting condition.

thanks guys. Anymore pics or suggestions.

perry

I find the above style more accurate at longer ranges, and the below style faster at shorter ranges.

Top sights are from a Fritz Weis 8x6o magnum with the ladder reaching out to 1200 meters.
The bottom sights are from a WR .318

I've found the finer details of irons to be an intensely personal choice, especially so with express sights. It must be, because I've seen quite a few new rifles with expresses set up by someone else that...well, I'd have been better off with a sling shot. Since express sights are all I've used for many years now...

First off, the term "express" sight refers to a specific type. They're a "V" and a bead. Flat top with a "U" on a verticle blade, as pictured in several photos above, are not express sights. They're generic open barrel back sights, and not intended for the same purpose that express sights are.

Express sights originated with the British, and I'm a British rifle guy. I've shot and handled more than I'm willing to take a even a wild guess at, and have never seen even one that had a wide V for the standing rear blade, and a flat-topped blade with a U notch for a folder. It's possible that someone ordered one that way, but that would be a very unusual order for the Brits.

Ideally, the rear standing leaf should never be verticle. The face should slope forward and have a matte finish with a platinum center wire (very effective in low light, without dazzling you in bright). I find a shallow, wide V (full width of the standing bar) to be the fastest, but still retains excellent precision at longer range. I have one rifle with a narrower V, like Frank's .318 above. It might offer very slightly superior precision at long range, but it isn't as fast, and is not as good in low light.

Whichever you choose, don't overlook a very important point when you're filing them in. No portion of the top surface of the "V" cut itself should EVER be flat. Properly done, the cut is relieved on the back side (hollow ground, if you will, on the side away from the shooter), so that there is no flat surface on top to produce glare from a high sun. This can cause the bead to fuzz out, sometimes completely. This is a particularly common and irratating problem with expresses filed in by folks who don't really understand them.

Ideally, the bead should be of shallow depth, and relatively flat faced which, unfortunately, the NECG is usually the opposite of. If the bead sticks out too far from the face of the stem, you get glare in side lights that can throw windage off. I find platinum much easier to pick up in low light, and can only use brass or gold in fairly good light.

Longer shots aren't that hard with good express sights - with the right size bead. Seems like everybody wants a huge bead, say 1/10" or even .1/8", on a big rifle with express sights, and that places a real limitation on the rifle. Sure, you can pick them up quickly but, in terms of precision, I find those barely adequate at 50 yds, and only good for a Hail Mary at 100.

Even though I'm getting old and my eyes are bad, I use a 1/16" platinum bead on the double I use the most, and have no trouble picking it up fast, or using it in low light. Go as small as you can and still pick it up quickly. If that's greater than .080", I'd suggest that you scope it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Great info 400 N.E.! I will take note of all this info and put it to use (i.e. the filing of the back of the sight). Thanks

Perry

I don't want this post to come off the wrong way, but I am curious if anyone actually uses these 200 and 300 yard leaves? I have several rifles with express sights just like those that have been pictured and would not shoot at a game animal out much beyond 100 yards with them and I am a good shooter. I understand the traditional look of express sights, why not use a ghost ring type sight that will provide much greater precision at longer distances without sacrificing any speed for close range work?

quote:

Originally posted by Chisana:
I don't want this post to come off the wrong way, but I am curious if anyone actually uses these 200 and 300 yard leaves?

I've used the 200 yard. It works.

quote:

I have several rifles with express sights just like those that have been pictured and would not shoot at a game animal out much beyond 100 yards with them and I am a good shooter.

There are good express sights, and bad. Any metallic sight takes some familiarization.

quote:

I understand the traditional look of express sights

It has to do with function, and nothing to do with tradition.

quote:

why not use a ghost ring type sight that will provide much greater precision at longer distances without sacrificing any speed for close range work?

A ghost ring is not as fast at close range, especially on a fast moving target; might be marginally more precise at longer distances; poor in low light where a properly made express excels. I can use a ghost ring in good light, but find it worthless in bad.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Gentlemen

Read 400 Nitro's posts carefully.

I have shot the 200 leaf on my 450 No2, and the 200 and 300 leaf on my 450/400, and they are spot on at those distances.

Too big a bead is not good. My 450 no2 has a "small" bead, I do not have any trouble picking it up fast, yet I have made hits on game as far as 188 yards. Same for my 450/400, I have killed caribou at 150 yards.

On my Chapuis it has a much larger front bead.
I have killed a lot of game with it and the iron sights, all of it under 75 yards.

The bead is just too large for longer shooting, but I have it fitted with a scope for that.

A wide rear V is best IMHO.

The rear sight [and the front for that matter] on my 450 No2 give me the best sight picture for hunting of ANY iron sights I have used.

At least I THINK they do, as the double fits me so well I cannot actually remember the sight picture on ANY animal I have shot with that rifle. While on the same hunt I can remember EVERY sight picture when using a scope on my 9,3 Chapuis.


Maybe that is why a proper fitting British double rifle, is the HOLY GRAIL of hunting rifles.

Nothing else even comes close.

N E 450 No2
Would you post some pics of that no2 you like so much, I'd love to see the sights.

Perry

perry
Sadly I am computer/photo challenged. Rusty may have some picture of my gun.

Maybe I can get my wife to post some.

If I had unlimited money ALL of my rifles would have the same shape rear sight, and front sight of my 450 No2.

Let me also add that I have hunted pigs with 400 Nitro, and not only does he shoot good he shoots FAST.

AND his 400/360 does knock the legs out from under them.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Maybe I can get my wife to post some.

That's what you said about your last two trips to Zimbabwe! I am still waiting for those pictures.

Seriously, if you ever want assitance with posting pictures just email them to me. My email address is in my profile.

quote:

A ghost ring is not as fast at close range, especially on a fast moving target; might be marginally more precise at longer distances; poor in low light where a properly made express excels. I can use a ghost ring in good light, but find it worthless in bad.

What was your testing protocol to determine that express sights are faster than a ghost ring? Did your testing include multiple shooters, or was that just for you? My observations and the observations of those I have trained with differ from yours in regard to speed and accuracy of a proper ghost ring set up compared to express sights. Using tritium front sights and rifle mounted lights we have no trouble using ghost rings in low light as well. We're fortunate to have so many options to choose from so that each shooter may tailor his rifle individually.