are these strong at all? anybody built on one?

thanks

quote:

Originally posted by delloro:
are these strong at all? anybody built on one?

thanks

They are strong enough for the pressures generated by the 7.62x54 round. I think back in the early 70's some were rechambered to 30-06 which was a serious mistake from what I can remember. I've never built on one and never will. I've seen "sporterized" versions but they aren'y very pleasing to the eye, but I guess they work. Far better options are readily available.

Mosins are plenty strong. The problem is getting around the damned magazine and making a proper feeding repeater out of it. These are about as close to a one-cartridge rifle as can be. You can't really use a cartridge much longer than the 7.62x54r and unless you've got some talent, its hard to do anything that's not based on this case.

Then again, if you've got tools, time, and talent, you may find them a raw canvas to work with - Lord knows if you screw a couple up, there's plenty more to start over on.

Embrace the Mosin for what it is; a magnificent military rifle of the days of yore. The gun could be made fast and cheap, but the gun was tough and capable of handling dirt and misuse like a Kalashnikov. Or troops were spoiled when entering Siberia during the end of WW1 and the beginning of the Russian Revolution with the Springfields in hand, but a rifle like the Springfield could never have supported the Russians with their style of warfare. Accuracy? Never forget what the Russian accomplished, nor what the Vietnamese accomplished with this rifle! I have seen this rifle competitively shoot out to 800 meters with modern loads. Do not even get me started with what the Finnish did to this rifle and the improvements!

UGLY Hell yeah, but let me know if you find a Remington in original good shape. I have original Remington ammunition made for the Czar [Tzar], before loosing the Revolution, to go with it!

quote:

I think back in the early 70's some were rechambered to 30-06 which was a serious mistake from what I can remember.

It was much earlier than the '70's when some were rechambered for .30/'06-it was very soon after WWI. At that time there were a lot of M/N's made in the U.S. that were not shipped to Russia following the Bolshevik takeover. If I recall correctly, a lot of these were made and sold by the old Francis Bannerman surplus arms outfit, and some were even marketed as "Bannerman Springfields", as were a lot of other junk rifles in .30/'06 put together from surplus parts by Bannerman and called "Springfields" when they were anything but!

The ones I am familiar with didn't even have the barrels set back before rechambering. Consequently, the rear end of the '06 cartridge, being smaller in diameter than the 7.62X54R, was just hanging unsupported out in the open air when a round was chambered! These rifles would have been OK for the '06 round if the chambers were of the correct dimensions. As it was, however, they were dangerous! Also, it semms to me that the .30/'06 round would be too long to work in the Moisin/Nagant magazine, so one would have to use them as a single shot, even if chambered correctly.

I don't remember exactly where I saw this, but I saw a website from a couple of guys who made a M/N into a bolt-action 45/70 and it handled levels slightly higher than the Marlin 1895 loads. It must have been a whole lot of work because if I remember correctly, it had a 3-shot magazine which it fed from.

I was thinking of making a 500 S&W repeater. the 500 would have about 10,000 lbs of theoretical bolt thrust. that's quite a bit [edited to state] more than the estimated theoretical bolt thrust for the 7.62x54R cartridge of 6200 lbs.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

quote:

I was thinking of making a 500 S&W repeater. the 500 would have about 10,000 lbs of theoretical bolt thrust. that's quite a bit less than the estimated theoretical bolt thrust for the 7.62x54R cartridge of 6200 lbs.

One of us has our hat on backwards, I always thought the bigger a number the more it was. I.E. 10k > 6.2k

quote:

Originally posted by Thaine:
One of us has our hat on backwards,

that would be me....

I think 333 OKH has it right. The M-N is what it is and it works. Sure, with enough effort and resources you could probably convert it into a semi-auto .257 Roberts.

While you are at it might as well make a machine that converts diamonds into jelly beans.

yes but 333OKH does not address my point.

I like mosins just fine, and I am not advocation modifying all of them. I do however want a .500 S&W repeater, and the 500 S&W is a rimmed round and the mosin feeds rimmed cartidges with similar base diameters, so it is a logical choice.

thus my question.

if anybody has any leads on information relating to mosin caliber changes or action strength, then please reply. otherwise, I suppose you are all welcome to your own opinions, but it's not very helpful to me.

thanks again.

It's an interesting idea, as the Mosin does handle rimmed cases right. I think you would quickly get into high $ gunsmithing costs to convert a Mosin to something else. I looked into doing a 45-70 or a 444 Marlin on one and gave it up.

Have you thought about a lever? For about $500 you can get a Puma in 454 or 480. Heck, you might even be able to convince them to make a factory rifle in 500. If these are tough enough to handle a steady diet of high pressure 454 ammo, they should be ok for a 500 S&W as well.

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
Embrace the Mosin for what it is; a magnificent military rifle of the days of yore. Do not even get me started with what the Finnish did to this rifle and the improvements!

They may be the inspiration for the original "Love/Hate relationship". They are butt ugly, and somewhat clumsy compared to shorter, lighter rifles. Their bolt handles are surely no jewel for the aspiring rapid-fire champion either. But they are certainly as strong as any Springfield '03, and definitely not prone to lots of field breakdowns.

With some of the thinner barreled versions, apparently the length of the '06 round also contributed to the failure of some of the "Bannerman-type" conversions. The '06 case is 9mm longer than the Russian case and when and if barrels WERE set back for rechambering, reportedly MAY have resulted in too little metal left surrounding the cartridge at the front of the chamber. At least, that's where some of the failures were reported to have blown out. Still, used correctly, it is a good action for strength.

Not only that, the Finn's 28/30 version has a heavy round barrel, screw adjustable (for windage) front sight, and is a REAL shooter. My most recent one shoots under an inch at 100 yards with the original iron sights and the first handload put together for it...and that's definitely as well as I can hold with those sights.

quote:

thus my question.

if anybody has any leads on information relating to mosin caliber changes or action strength, then please reply. otherwise, I suppose you are all welcome to your own opinions, but it's not very helpful to me.

Hokky Dokky:

You're going to need a new barrel, sights, stock, bluing, probably a new bolt face, and most assuredly a new magazine. I don't have any measurements in front of me, but I do own a a couple Mosins and I doubt like hell that you'd be able to open the issue magazine up enough to accomodate a 50 caliber anything.

Now then, do you own a machine shop capable of doing this work? Or will you hiring it all done? My gunsmith quoted me $75 an hour for his time and I can't imagine anyone charging much less for theirs. At that price plus materials, how much are you willing to sink into a $30 barreled action? Remember, we're not talking about screwing a precontoured, prechambered barrel onto a Remington and sending it out the the door; no...there's going to be issues with this transformation and those issues will eat up time at $XX/hour. And I am sure there is a gunsmith out there who would be willing to undertake this work for you, but it will most likely be an exercise in false economy. You're stilling going to have a rifle with a shitty safety and even shittier trigger - both of which can't be easily fixed.

Would like my honest opinion? I think you're not going to be pleased with how much this is actually going to cost and I believe further that you won't be as satisfied with the end result. If you want to however, please spend your money and find out. And post pictures because I'd love to see it finished. Otherwise, buy an Encore with a 500 S&W barrel and dispense with the Mosin idea altogether. I think if you did that, you would might be happier with what you get and you would probably come out money ahead on the deal.

A friend of mine decided to try and blow up one of his M N rifles. I was amazed at what it took. A case full of red dot didnt do it. It did create a small amount of headspace, I cant remember the numbers now, but it fired a surplus round fine. Another case filled with bullseye and the mil bullet seated was fired. It ruptured the case, split the reciver ring and blew the barrel ... but the bolt held. It is still ugly, even if it is stronger then you'd think!

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:

Hokky Dokky:

You're going to need a new barrel, sights, stock, bluing, probably a new bolt face, and most assuredly a new magazine.

new barrel, yes. new front sight? so what. reuse rear sight. I park at home. did you miss the part about rim diameters being similar? no new bolt face. most assuredly no new magazine. cut the sides, bend them straight, weld them back myself, fab a follower and floorplate, and be done with it. I don't need the Keebler Elves to do that.

this is not brain surgery.

if you don't like my idea, that's fine, but please keep it to yourself unless you have something useful to add regarding the original topic of this post, which is MN action strength or experience building on an MN action.

thank you in advance for cooperation in this matter.

I hear what you're proposing. Here are some comments I have based on what you're saying.

If you're just going to rebarrel and re-use alot of the rifle's parts and bead and park the metal, then you likely can get away with a relatively inexpensive stock such as a RamLine or a Numrich beech sporter stock, or even sportered wood. whatever. I would STRONGLY suggest something other than the original rear sight - it's far too ugly and will be graduated all wrong. Consider mybe a Lyman peep or a Williams Tang or something similar that you will be somewhat happy with. For front sights, maybe a Remington 700 BDL take-off or similar? Easy enough to install if you have a press and taps.

With respect to the mag and feeding, if you make the mag fat enough, you will still need a spacer in the mag for the shorter round. the Mosing mag feeds from a hinged and spring loaded arm pivoting at the front of the mag, so your spacer can;t be in the front half or the mag, it will have to be at the back. You'll also have to bend or cut and reweld the shape of the follower arm so that it pushes up the cartridges in front of whatever spacer you install. I'd suggest just silver soldering in a shaped sheet metal spacer as it will likely be the least amount of work.

Feeding might be an issue. the 54R round relies on the thin projectile and tapered case to start the round into the chamber far enough for the extractor to grab the case. It's not a smooth CRF system like a Mauser so you'll need to find a way to modify the feed lip to retan the round long enough for he bolt head to grab it on the way into the chamber.

On a Mosin, the feed lips are a sort of spring loaded sheet steel affair coming through the left side of the receiver and a hard feed rail on the right side of the receiver. The spring-loaded part will need work and possibly need to be extended forward to contact the case properly.

Hope you have a lot of time on your hands to fiddle as this sounds like a bit of a PITA to me. Might be easier to use an SMLE or Enfield No.4 action to start with? Or possibly Siamese Mauser?

One neat idea might be to use a Gew71/84 or 1886 Lebel, but I don't know that the receivers would be strong enough.

I have overloaded the 7.62x54R until the bolt jammed, and the headspace does not change.

I have built a 45/70 single shot and loaded it hot.

The guns are hard to break, hard to fix up, and ugly.

You should only have one for every 10 Mausers you own.